Reddit reviews Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
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Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents How to Heal from Distant Rejecting or Self Involved Parents
Omg. That’s hilarious. Ahh it would be so great if you could counter with another prominently displayed book with an accusatory title.
Something like this maybe?
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
“I liked you better when we weren’t speaking, Mom” 😑
Sorry, I know burning bridges is not always what people want/need, but wow you really nailed so much tone/script here. And people who say these things know that the things they say to us have more impact, negative or positive, because of their role in our lives is trusted and close (or it was) but they choose to use it to manipulate instead of support.
Try to remove yourself a step or three from the situation and think about what it would take for someone who loves you and wants you safe and well, to say things like this. What would it take for you to say things like this to someone you love? Even if you think they made a bad choice, ‘I liked you better the other way’ is a ridiculously self centered and petulant approach.
You should be able to expect better, but this person, for whatever reason, has some kind of deficit in their capacity. Their emotional intelligence is at a deficit. I really don’t know how much of that is a choice, or it’s just how some people are wired. Either way, you keep exposing yourself to harm if you keep being vulnerable to someone like this, though. You’ll be safer if you can say ‘well they aren’t capable of being the person I need; I need to manage my expectations of them, because I can’t trust them to be thoughtful.”
I can’t help but recommend this book - Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, if this is coming from a parent. It would probably still be helpful if it’s not a parent.
You were not born to be the prettiest figurine on this person’s knickknack shelf. Don’t feel obligated to do so, or guilty for not doing so. It’s not an expectation a reasonable person would set.
(Hmm I think you hit a nerve or three ;)
Here are some excellent books on narcissistic parenting and its upshots (all available on amazon.com, etc):
Nina Brown's Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents
Eleanor Payson's The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family
Lindsay Gibson's Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
Elan Golomb's Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in the Struggle for Self
Susan Forward's Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life (a bit long in tooth now, but still useful) and Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You
Kimberlee Roth & Frieda Friedman's Surviving a Borderline Parent: How to Heal Your Childhood Wounds & Build Trust, Boundaries, and Self-Esteem
(I've read -- actually deeply studied, using each as a workbook -- all of them, and feel comfortable recommending them.
Further, the dynamics of growing up in such families are strikingly similar to what happens in cults. If one is conditioned, socialized, habituated and normalized to a particular form of abuse (before one can recognize the abuse as such) in childhood, it is often the case that one will grow up to seek intimates who are likely to repeat the same form of traumatization to which they were normalized as children. In my case, I took my unconscious -- and unprocessed -- abuse into a series of cult and other co-dependent workplace and relationship situations. If one understands what happens in cults, one often gets a very clear picture of what happened in their own families of origin with narcissistic parents.
My parents did the same thing. I had come out to them once before and then went back in the closet then came out to them again and then went public and full time within 2 months and I didn’t tell them beforehand that I was going to come out. Their response? “Well you should have told us so we could prepare people that we know”
It’s not their transition and they don’t need to prepare anyone. They are emotionally immature parents and you should read a book called:
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_z0hVCb2KZADP3
It’s a really good read and will help you learn how to deal with them.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents
I have recommended this book before, it's exactly what you're looking for.
When I first read it I was just blown away. It was like somebody had followed my family around and then written a book about us.
It has exercises to help you process and get over things. As the book helps you work through the exercises you'll find that your anger will hopefully diminish.
Good luck, and be good to yourself!
To anyone dealing with parents like this, I recommend this book: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
It helped me recognize all the different behaviors that are related and validated to me that I wasn't crazy thinking their behavior was harmful. It also has some advice about how to protect yourself and maintain (or not) a relationship with someone like that.
Habis baca buku ini dan ini terus mikir ternyata childhood gw mayan fucked up juga yha. Di satu sisi lega karena akhirnya pengalaman dan apa yang gw rasain selama ini tervalidasi, tapi sejujurnya di sisi lain kesel soalnya gw gak minta ada di dunia ini tapi kok ya gw juga yg kena emotional neglect. Kadang iri sama orang-orang yang keluarganya bisa jadi support system, sedangkan keluarga seringnya jadi trigger breakdown gw :(
Yes. From what we know about BPD, it's partially onset by a genetic factor of higher emotions than most people. What completes the onset is being raised in an emotionally invalidating environment. Abuse or neglect of our (high) emotional needs can very well stunt your emotional growth into full on BPD.
You mention your parents a lot. This book is free to read on Amazon Prime and it's wonderfully insightful to what you may have experienced with the parental situation you're describing.
Wow, are you me? I have nearly the same story.
My dad grew up with physical abuse so he went 180 and became an absent father. If he wasn't always at work he was literally ignoring everything by watching TV.
My mother was verbally and emotionally abusive, possibly overcompensating from my father never parenting. Maybe that's also why he zoned out in front of the TV, to avoid my mother.
As a teen I was in therapy and identified I was severely missing my absent father. Just a few months ago I realized I still am still seeking his approval, as if I'm 20 years younger.
Both of my parents were emotionally immature and my gf recently gave me a wonderful book that helped me understand both of their parenting dynamics, and how to cope with them now.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_p3lZCb458Y2X3
I'm currently very low contact with them both.
Why did I suddenly dive down the rabbit hole into my parents dynamic? My girlfriend has 2 kids. I have always had a strong aversion toward having kids. I realized it was mostly because I didn't want to become my parents and have a child become resentful of their own childhood like I did. I had to figure out why parents did what they did, and now I can make sure to break the cycle.
You hit the nail on the head. When I realized my mother threw tantrums like a child and my father responded very immature in kind I found an amazing book that really helped me identify their behavior
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
Trust me guys give it a read it will help a lot if you're still in the deep swamp of "why did they act this way"
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1626251703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482260262&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=adult+children+emotionally+immature&dpPl=1&dpID=51P9RJmQ6eL&ref=plSrch
Aww man I’m sorry. My mom and I had a very similar exchange and I went no contact for a while. During that time I read this book:
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_FjAvCb8JASMCM
It really helped me a lot. Anyway I’ve decided to let her back in and sure enough she hasn’t changed but at least I’m more prepared for it.
I’m sorry your mom is so immature and emotionally draining. I thought your text was very kind and appropriate in limit setting. It’s hard dealing with parent baggage during pregnancy
Unfortunately, it's not gonna stick. I read a good book recently, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and one of the take-aways for me is that my parents are not going to change, and expecting them to will invariably lead to disappointment (best case) or me experiencing more toxic behaviour (worst case).
I have maintained a marginal relationship with my parents, haven't cut them off completely, but whenever I talk to them now, I never expect them to be better than they are.
Childhood emotional neglect and attachment trauma can be present despite material wealth. These experiences can be damaging to children and may cause mental health problems that endure into adulthood and until they are dealt with. If either of these ring a bell with you, then you might want to look them up.
The following books may also be helpful
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536758061&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=adult+children+of+emotionally+immature+parents&dpPl=1&dpID=51aZz7vsiHL&ref=plSrch
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Not-Price-Admission-relationships-childhood/dp/1517683408/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536758108&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=not+the+price+of+admission&dpPl=1&dpID=61BgEJgbp2L&ref=plSrch
(In particular, page 45 of the latter explains how emotional neglect may affect a developing child. Please be aware that the video it links to may be triggering if you have experienced these issues in your life)
No one here can say whether these things happened to you or not but talking about your feelings and their origins with a good therapist might be a good start to working out why you feel this way and how you can start feeling better.
As someone else said, there are people with judgemental attitudes out there, but we have the choice to approach ourselves with kindness and compassion throughout our efforts to recover. Wishing you all the best in your recovery.
I've been reading Adult children of emotionally immature parents and it's giving me some helpful insights about mentally reframing how I think about my mother.
I am so glad you didn't break up with your girlfriend over your mother's terrible emotional manipulation! Honestly, putting that physical distance between you and your mother may help you establish emotional boundaries better because you won't have that physical contact where she can use her fits and rage and emotional displays to control your responses.
I'm not sure if you're into self help books, but two that I've been reading are Will I Ever be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsey C Gibson. I think both give really good explanations of the behavior of Nparents, particularly Nmothers in the first book. The first book also offers a series of exercises to help you identify your own personal traits and personality that may have been masked by your Nmom because she has left no room to express yourself while in her presence. A big part of both books is the idea that we can't expect our parents to change. They're not emotionally mature enough to have the sort of health mature relationships we wish we could have with them, so the issue kind of comes down to this: If we want them in our lives, can we accept them as they are? If we can't go on trying to maintain a relationship with them as they are, then perhaps cutting ties really is the best option.
Take your time to sort out your emotional stuff and get to some place of resolve (it likely won't be complete resolve, but at least get to a stable spot where you can make some clear decisions for yourself), and I encourage you to make decisions based on what you want to do and not based on what you believe you're supposed to do (based on how your mother has trained you). Your emotions are valid. Your wants and aspirations are valid. You matter, and people who truly care for you will hope that you do what makes you happy.
I'm rooting for you!
Edit: Some words.
Sure! To start, you can look for patterns. I ended up journaling out everything and looking for similarities. Some of the triggers are things you've been conditioned to respond to from childhood, which is one reason they can be so hard to spot. For me, nDad would do (and still sometimes does) a hysterical "OMG HELP HELP" flail, because I was trained to respond to nDad's flails with "oh no, how can I help?" They can be any type of flail - tech breaks, he's having a depressing day, nMom is making his life awful, he just hates everything, etc. The general pattern is nDad needs help, I am expected to help and take care of him, taking his burdens on as my own. Or, nMom wants something, so I am expected to sacrifice everything so she can have it (except she has no idea what "it" is, but I'm still supposed to give up whatever for whatever and tell her how grateful and wonderful she is).
Grey rocking helps with this. So nDad will flail and send a text - "OMG MY COMPUTER IS BROKEN WHAT DO I DO HELP HELP HELP HELP!!!!!!!!". You always need to think before responding, that's key, because so many triggers are emotional, and you need to reach an emotionally neutral place before responding. So after a few hours or even a day or two, I'll send back something like "That's awful. Have you set up an appointment with tech support?" nDad is used to me immediately trying to fix his problems - pausing the response stops that pattern, and directs him elsewhere. If there's further questions like "HOW DO I DO X, WHAT DO I DO NOW???", I refuse to help. His emergency does not become mine.
With nDad, I was conditioned to be the parent, but with nMom, I was conditioned to always seek her approval. nMom would get upset about something, go into permanent silent treatment mode, and then I was supposed to dance around until I figured out what it was and somehow fixed it. With this one, you just have to realize that a normal relationship is one that has communication and conflict resolution, not you making the other party guess what's wrong (seriously, this doesn't even work in basic friendships). So when she went into silent treatment mode the last time, because I "never answered the phone" (another falsity about myself), I left her there. It was hard at first because as kids we naturally want to reach out to our parents, but it got easier over time. We've spoken about 4 times a years in the last 4 years. You have to learn where your boundaries are. I decided that I was ok with calling them on major holidays - Mother/Father's day, Thanksgiving, Christmas. I plan out a list of topics I want to stick to, and don't let them go onto crazy tangents (nDad likes to rant).
Then, like what we're discussing here, there's the narrative that you are something you're not (which is guaranteed to upset anyone). Honestly, I've given up defending this. It's a natural inclination, but it doesn't get you anywhere because they don't hear you, and it inevitably just makes you upset and leads to an argument that, of course, they had no fault in, which just upsets you more and they are either delighted by your anger or completely oblivious.
When I got engaged, nMom sat me down and said, "But does he know how nasty you are?" The implication being that fiancé would leave once he realized that I'm just pretending to be a kind person and am secretly deep down a seething volcano of hatred and spite, and that I just wasn't being honest with him (because, lest we forget, I'm such a total liar). You need to find out who you are, so that you can tell yourself that you know who you are when you're confronted with this lunacy.
It takes a lot of effort and preparation. It's a total pain with little to no benefit, so I totally understand why many people go NC. I'm LC with nDad and NC with nMom. And, if they really piss me off, I do go NC, just without telling them about it. I'll just stop responding. Some people do write a letter to say "hey, I'm going NC", and at first I felt really guilty about doing it and not telling them. But, then I realized that I AM an adult and I DO have to protect myself. We have to protect our own sanity, and that means learning where your boundaries are. Since they are anxiety causing, some of my boundaries are:
They do not know my home address and they do not have a direct phone number for me. They do have an email address.
These were some books that really helped me out, and I read each of them a few times:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough?
Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation, and Guilt to Manipulate You
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life
​
If I can be of any help, let me know. :)
>The whole problem is so simple and the solutions so seemingly easy, but I literally just cannot.
I have felt this way to a greater or lesser degree for most of my life, particularly for things related to self-care and personal motivation. Trying to willpower myself through doing those things, even if temporarily successful, usually didn't last and increased the feelings of self-loathing and ineptness/impotency. Low-level depression (made worse by some hormones) was the norm for me. I'd made strides in specific cases (learning to exercise was one), but several areas continue to be difficult for me.
BUT--I read a book that changed things for me hugely, just a few months ago. I read it because I've been trying to understand for years how to connect with my kids to have the happy, close, trusting, peaceful relationships as a family that are my dream. The obstacles I kept coming up against, over and over, were inside of me, and I needed to understand how to get past myself so we could all be happy!
I'd looked at books meant for adult kids of alcoholics, since some of the advice paralleled with areas I struggled in (like having good boundaries, making good friendships, even adulting in general), but it...just wasn't quite right, 'cause growing up, we didn't tiptoe around secrets or deny serious dysfunction or go without basic physical care. Still, there was something missing, and the missing "whatever" felt really, really tied to this inability to DO. To self-motivate. To take care of myself. To have ANYTHING to draw on inside me to give my kids an attentive, centered person to relate to.
Then I came across this book: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson. It basically outlines how your parents can provide a home with physical care, security, and affection, and still leave you feeling like you are lost and empty inside, even as an adult.
I have the book around here somewhere but I can't find it, so I hope you'll forgive me quoting some things from the amazon preview that are wordy but close to what I want to convey:
>"Growing up in a family with emotionally immature parents is a lonely experience. These parents may look and act perfectly normal, caring for their child’s physical health and providing meals and safety. However, if they don’t make a solid emotional connection with their child, the child will have a gaping hole where true security might have been. The loneliness of feeling unseen by others is as fundamental a pain as physical injury, but it doesn’t show on the outside…When the children of emotionally immature parents grow up, the core emptiness remains…
>"Emotional loneliness is so distressing that a child who experiences it will do whatever is necessary to make some kind of connection with the parent. These children may learn to put other people’s needs first as the price of admission to a relationship. Instead of expecting others to provide support or show interest in them, they may take on the role of helping others, convincing everyone that they have few emotional needs of their own. Unfortunately, this tends to create even more loneliness, since covering up your deepest needs prevents genuine connection with others. [My note: So feeling like your own caretaking is undeserved, or putting yourself last on a visceral level is a part of this. Also, my dad was a controlling parent, and my motivation problems have root in the passive aggressive way I tried to resist being controlled in nearly every area of life, since outward defiance was so, so emotionally risky.] ...
>"Parents who are emotionally immature are so self-preoccupied that they don’t notice their children’s inner experiences. In addition, they discount feelings, and they fear emotional intimacy. They’re uncomfortable with their own emotional needs and therefore have no idea how to offer support at an emotional level. Such parents may even become nervous and angry if their children get upset, punishing them instead of comforting them. These reactions shut down children’s instinctive urge to reach out, closing the door to emotional contact…."
Anyway, I may be all wet, so I'm sorry if none of this feels like it applies to you! I'm kinda like the proverbial man with a hammer, who thinks everything is now a nail: this new paradigm has changed my self-understanding so completely, and it's just not part of the way most people talk about family and ourselves in general, that if anyone even kinda looks like it might apply to them, I want them to know about it! It's helped me see that I'm not defective as a person--I have deficits in emotional skills I should have been taught and wasn't. Deficits in supportive relationships I should have had, but don't.
I hope this helps in some way. If nothing else, just know you're not crazy, you're not worthless, and you're not alone.
Edit: formatting/clarity
I'm working on it. Therapy once a week, and I'm struggling to finish a degree that I've been working on for a while. Whenever I do good work in school, I self-sabotage. It's infuriating. But these support groups on Reddit help a lot.
I hope other people who have enabler parents realize that it's OK to be mad at them. Yeah, they were victims of abuse in a way too, but we deserved better. IDK if your DH or you ever want book recommendations on enabler moms, but I've left a trail of breadcrumbs with book excerpts in them through my posts:
The enabler bibliography is still a work in progress, but it's a great jumping off point for anyone else who is mad as hell at an enabler. I'll keep adding to it as I find more relevant books, essays, chapters, poems, etc.
>Am I wrong to react so emotionally to this?
Look, I don't really get your situation and I don't feel what you're feeling. But your emotions aren't wrong or right. They're valid. You have them. It's not wrong to have an emotional reaction to things. You feel lonely and hurt; those are your feelings and they're valid. Choosing to act on those emotions might be a good or bad idea, depending on the situation, but remember that it's okay to have the feelings.
But that echoing loneliness you feel? The emptiness? I felt it too. I used to feel it constantly. It's not the result of being alone, which surprised the hell out of me when I found out. It's the result of a shitty childhood where emotional abuse in the form of emotionally unavailable parents led to your feeling unseen and/or having lousy boundaries. The bad news is that your SO can't fix it. It's an emotional injury, and while those can be caused by other people, they can't be healed by other people.
The good news is that you can heal the emotional injury. It takes time and effort, but the result is that you don't feel empty, whether you have an SO or not. I recommend you take a look at Adult Children of Emotionally Unavailable Parents, if you haven't already. It's a hell of a read and addresses, among other things, that specific "you feel echoingly empty" feeling.
Books I recommend: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and Emotional Blackmail.
As for finding a therapist, I would use your insurance provider's search and look up the offices and generally they should have a list of areas of expertise covered by their therapists. You want to look for descriptions like Adult Children of Alcoholics/Addicts, Codependency, Family Issues, and when he calls he can give a brief description like you mentioned in your post. They should be able to direct him to a counselor to set up a first appointment. Also, think of finding a therapist like finding a partner. The first person he meets might not be the best fit, and he doesn't have to keep going to them if he wants to find someone he feels more comfortable with.
Good luck to you both!
Yes! I recommend his book:
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
Link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_oS7VBb66HX0XW
It really helps validate how you’ve been feeling all a long. And yes, it does give advice on how to finally heal from the abuse. It really changed my perspective of it all, hope it helps!
I'm very happy that you took something useful from what I said, and I'm glad to have helped in any way. You're a good person and deserve to be happy, and you're a strong and self-aware person who is capable of making the changes you need to. I believe in you.
I have heard tales of the problems with religious therapists in the states, and I sympathize. If you have extra cash floating around, there's a therapist up here in Canuckistan that, as far as I know, is willing to take international clients via Skype. If you don't have extra cash I might recommend the books Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and (depending on how severe the behavior of relatives are) Stop Walking on Eggshells, both of which talk about how to recognize and establish boundaries amidst a whole bunch of other work on learning healthy relationship habits and coping mechanisms, self-parenting, etc. Cheaper than therapy and almost as good.
I am glad you found what I had to say so valuable, and I hope it continues to be helpful to you.
I got a lot out of this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
I was diagnosed as an early twenties adult, long after it would have helped growing up (probably not actually because people have to actually care). I was still struggling to understand myself and life after I left at 18 for college. All this did was open my eyes that I am not "wrong" and I don't need to change all the time as per my family yelling at me constantly and others always feeling it's okay to constantly shame every little thing about me (my motto had become "It's always okay for everyone else but not for me").
I spent the next decade realizing my family is a bunch of abusive narcissists who don't respect me as a human being. I am wildly different from the rest of my family and have always felt inhuman next to them. When I first tried talking to them about the diagnosis and what Asperger's was, they tried turning it around and suggesting how they all had some of it and maybe everyone should get diagnosed. Shoulda been obvious to me at that moment how insane narcissistic they are and that this wasn't going to change any of them or how they view me. Nope, I'm still just wrong and need to change.
I will point out, my family went from atheist to hardcore religious in the middle of my childhood, and I was the youngest and mostly only child for most of my teen years, which quickly turned into "we won't screw up with you the way we did with the others" bootcamp. Needless to say, Asperger's mixed with psychological and slight physical abuse while being extremely sheltered do not mix well. I'm still being shocked regularly to find out how not normal my raising was and that it's not my fault every time anything went wrong.
If you find that you relate to this I'd recommend /r/raisedbynarcissists as a helping point. It's helped me a lot. I'd also recommend this book for coping with emotionally immature (narcisstic) parents/family: https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
I find there's never enough help for Adult Aspies who were abused. Every time I meet Autism Speaks or similar folk at conventions they are always shocked cause these organizations focus so hard on current children with generally supportive parents.
I also find therapy and counseling don't help because they either usually suggest I know more about myself already than they can help me find out, and/or they tell me to let things go. No, I can't. It's not that simple. It's never that black & white.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a good book on the subject ( https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703 ). If you can't buy it, shoot me a PM and I can send you an ebook version.
Do whatever you can to remove yourself from that environment. Change is possible within it, but it really helps to be far from people who cause such painful feelings. It's hard to change when your defense mechanisms are at full force. Even if it's just temporarily removing yourself. Volunteer jobs and such!
It's kind of come out okay, with all things considered.
I've been dealing with a lot of emotional exhaustion, mostly stemming from my misadventures in securing PTSD treatment and my mum slowly disintegrating as dementia continues to do its' thing. The bonus being that none of my older siblings want to take responsibility for her as they would rather abuse painkillers or alcohol, so despite my own stresses it falls to me as the only sibling in the family who has it together. :x
I'm being stubborn about it all, though, so I'm trying to keep my head up and keep going through doctors until I can get the care I need. A good friend referred me to a doctor in the area who understands breast dysphoria and will treat me like a human being, so I'm hoping that I'll finally be able to tick that off of my list of things to resolve after so many stupid years.
The nice thing is that I've been able to get my potato juice habit under control, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to finally quit it again when I can get proper (ie, not ethanol based..) PTSD treatment. Also, I found a book - Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, by Lindsay Gibson, PsyD - which has been a huge help in putting myself back together, given the home life I grew up in. So that's kind of nice, too.
Also, happy birthday!
hugs
I also struggled with this. Reading "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay C. Gibson right now and it has been immensely clarifying.
Get your boyfriend this book.
As someone with two toxic parents it is very helpful. https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
For sure! My therapist says that it makes all the difference. Suddenly, the narc’s actions aren’t happening to you - they become something you observe, moving away from “personal” to “objective”. I also read a book where that advised making all your interactions transactional. Go into conversation with a clear goal or outcome. This was the book: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. If you live with your nmom, just buy a kindle or digital copy ;)
So...I hesitate a bit to recommend this book to you, since you've tagged the source of your feeling like "human garbage" as from active shaming your mom did, which might be caused by something else, but I feel like I could have written your post--the ever-recurring feeling of being empty/of being utterly worthless, the depression, the fierce desire to give my kids something better, the tiptoeing around parents ' feelings, esp. about anything I might feel that would upset them--and this book put it all in perspective for me: https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
It was like a revelation (way more like personal revelation than anything I'd ever gotten from church!). It should have devastated me (and I won't lie, those painful feelings hit later) but in reality my first reaction was just feeling so glad to finally understand! My parents are emotionally immature! Everything they do is colored by trying to protect their own feelings & meet their own emotional needs, just like little kids do! And I'm understanding some of my struggles better, too, since turns out I'm not as emotionally mature as I'd like to be, either (since I wasn't well-taught growing up and my emotional needs weren't well-met).
Anyway, that book might not be very informative for your dynamic, but it was for mine, and the more I look around at Mormon families I know well and read stories in this sub, the more I wonder if emotional immaturity and its consequences in a family are as common as dirt in Mormonism...
Edit: sun to sub--darn autocorrect! And...trying to be more self-aware here--I can't just blame my parents for me not being emotionally mature. I'm an adult now; it's on me to figure it out and learn/become better. But I don't mind saying I didn't get much of a head start from my upbringing. :)
It's not a shock that she didn't even pay attention enough to understand the abuse by your father. It sounds like she's very emotionally immature and self-absorbed. Sounds like she's pretty abusive herself.
I would also like to point out that she actually turned the guilt back on you. It wasn't enough that you had to live that way. Now, it's your fault for not telling her and that you are a weak adult.
I actually believed the thoughts implanted in my mind by my parents that my childhood wasn't that bad because it WASN'T AS BAD as the worst case scenario. Sorry Mom, this is still pretty terrible.
I'm so sorry. i hear you. I emphathize.
I highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486193052&sr=8-1&keywords=emotionally+immature+parents
I don't know if you think this would be helpful, but I really found it helpful for me.
You may find this book helpful. I did. Your parents are emotionally immature. The church and their upbringing made them that way. When you try to get them to see reason, they can’t process it. They feel threatened or attacked. You may never have any success with that. I never have. The book I linked helped me see why my parents they are they are. It helped me resent them less. Resenting the church... that’s another story.
u/Mohandor I empathize with that. Therapy has helped me get out of a bad moment, but it's not the only tool in the box. The right book at the right time, especially if you're actively looking to get better, can be a great help.
In my case for example, I came across Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson by chance, just as I began therapy; I knew the topic was part of my problem, so it was spot-on and helped me make progress on that point, in particular, faster than I did with therapy. Professionals have their own rulebook and don't want to rush things (also you're limited by the number and duration of the sessions), so if you have an inkling of what your "source" issue is, go looking for a book of this sort. Good luck!
I hear ya. I'm also tired of this life. The only thing that keeps me alive is my faith in God and realizing that this life is only temporary.
I'm not going to preach here, because everyone has the ability to look things like this up for themselves. Some more practical advice:
You might want to check out this book. I'm quite critical when it comes to these kind of books, but this one has 'opened my eyes' a bit when it comes to parents.
If they really love you but are just bad at it, imagine what they'd want you to do if they COULD understand. They'd want you to take care of yourself and do what's best for you, right? So do what's best for you, and if it makes them uncomfortable, be secure knowing that they'd support you giving yourself some distance if you need it. (And on the off chance they DON'T actually love you, well that's a pretty good reason to back away a bit!)
I highly recommend Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents as a great resource that helped me navigate my choice to stop talking with my parents for awhile (over a year and counting) while still letting them know I love them and I know they love me, but I need some space for awhile to take care of myself. (Age 18+ not required :P)
In case anyone ends up here looking for information on how boundaries work in a relationship, these books are very informative:
Hey :) I'm sorry to hear you've had similar experiences. Especially with both parents which must have been so difficult growing up.
Here is the children of immature parents one : https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=asc_df_1626251703/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312130960442&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9654312278016782856&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004427&hvtargid=pla-347358731227&psc=1
And a link to a free pdf of the abusive adults one: https://www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that.pdf the chapter I mentioned was chapter 10
Also in my comment above to OP I added a few helpful links I've found. YouTube is also a really good source for some clarity because a lot of psychologists who specialize in these topics have consise advice to share.
I don't have a lot of time to answer, but I feel ya. Objectively, my parents were great. Did everything they needed to do to take care of me. Physically and financially at least. However, emotionally, they dropped the ball. It really fucked with me and I feel like a piece of shit for splitting on them and being upset at them. They took care of me (goes my thoughts)! Why am I being an ungrateful bitch (continues the thoughts). It really messes with me. I know people who have had parents 1000x worse than mine and I feel like because of that, I'm being a major drama queen.
​
One thing that's been helpful for me is this book. It's about emotionally immature parents and their adult children. It really explains a lot of their behavior and its affect on me. Super easy to read and overall is short.
>We all walk around with a huge "SHOULD" floating above us, casting a cloud over everything we do. Everyone has one-- some are bigger and more awful than others. It comes from childhood.
>
>It's a simple matter of reaching up there, grabbing it, and pulling it down. Inner governments are even more fragile and made up than outer governments.
I was going for a guillotine suicide joke but that works too
> If I can't help you, maybe Lindsay Gibson can.
Ill look for a pdf(Although there are definitely other factors at play here)
> I had a long road to recovery (from what I thought was depression)
Good you got better
I'm saying don't move out first, actually. Transition anyway... just be prepared to move out.
Also, I recommend the these books, they'll help you:
https://www.amazon.com/Queer-Transgender-Resilience-Workbook-Orientation-ebook/dp/B06XGCK1SQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?keywords=transgender+resilience+workbook&qid=1565724794&s=gateway&sprefix=transgender+res&sr=8-5
https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Art-Not-Giving-Counterintuitive-ebook/dp/B019MMUA8S/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=the+subtle+art+of+not+giving+a+f---+mark+manson&qid=1565724839&s=gateway&sprefix=the+subt&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=asc_df_1626251703/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312130960442&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13704884949090517083&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1026201&hvtargid=aud-801381245258:pla-347358731227&psc=1
They'll help you do what you need for yourself without apologizing or letting others control you.
Yes. Borderline Personality Disorder mother and a Narcissiric Personality Disorder (though this diagnosis is rarely given because narcissists rarely seek therapy unless they are forced to or suffer a flash of light live-changing usually traumatic experience where their narcissism no longer can protect their false dreamt-up reality using others as ‘narcissistic supply’)
My parents sandwiched me growing up with their V-spot BPD-NPD real-self dance when they inadvertently and advertenly activate each others’ false selfs and defense mechanism who are unable to procure true real romantic intimacy to support an authentic true-self loving household therefore inflicting role-reversal enmeshed narcissistic abuse onto their self-esteem identity/indivislity developing children.
https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-romantic-bpd-relationships-425217
https://www.amazon.com/Malignant-Self-Love-Narcissism-Sam-Vaknin/dp/8023833847
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL7270096M/Search_For_The_Real_Self
Which is why hordes of internet schizoid-like Internet-type dudes are trying to resolve their fundamental core inability to expresss true genuine feelings of true intimacy with friends, relationships, others, etc. because of a ‘beta’ father and an ‘abusive’ mother in a dysfunctionla nuclesr family structure, if at all. And we live in an escapist dreamworld trying to live vicariously through Hollywood superheroes to imitate — or for the Asian community an idealized person to guide and relate to; the idealized Asian father figure to sooth and ameliorate our lack of identity, self-esteem development, and masculinity.
Luckily for me, my father was masculine so I have no problems standing on my own two feet with dudes of all backgrounds (hustlers, ex-cons, and blue-collar, nerds, etc.) but the romantic part is very difficult for me right now because of an emotionally toxic mother with no immediate female relatives to relate to as a child. This is why long-term insight-oriented psycho dynamic talk therapy is critical to address the identity issues and garner a stable self-image and develop healthy self-esteem building in a ‘safe-space’ private dedicated session with an if good objective psychoanalytic psychoanalyst/psychotherapist. But HMOs/insurance/self-pay don’t want to pay for this only to cheap out with superfiscal cognitive-behavioral “jussss change ur thoughts about the ordeal” approach, rather than bringing about unresolved unconscious intrapsychic conflicts from (early) childhoods that arrests our core identity development/self-esteem building (confidence) as individuals in this “I”-centered Westernsphere whereas conversely Confucianism culture of asserting direct confrontation of “I” or “you’re xyz” is vehemently disrespectful in the interpersonal culture of indirection.
...but Confucianism/Buddhism teaches us we must embrace suffering and self/sacrifice for a better successive generation tomorrow. Our immigrant parents bring this collectivism mindset but to navigate American life, we must assert ourselves as independent functioning individuals with self-stability and self-constancy of who we are. Simply said, the West values the individual irrespective of the family despite the aristocratic lineage rhetoric as Hollywood always admires a great rags-to-riches underdog movie. Whereas the Confucianism East desires to maintain peace, harmony, order and peaceful resistance of nonconfrontation.
However, the irony is that growing up in the Anglosphere we have to garner a dialetically diametrically opposed dualistic strategy of collectivist Confucianism at home and individualist identity in the non-Asian real-world. The village community doesn’t respect the individual because you’re deviating from the social norm and ingroup clique and their collectively shared self-esteem and group identity. Whereas the West cherishes the Johnny Appleseed wanderer, Lewis and Clark expeditions, the visionary dreamer for whatever xyz dreamt-up upotia. The East wants to maintain the Confucius scholar-beaurcrat hierarchy. Essentially, America’s narrative is to explore and find family and a sense of community as an individual leaving home, whereas the East wrt to China desires to maintain internal social stability our 5000 Han Chinese homogenous familial hierarchical family. And it is no mistake that the Asian-to-Asian connection is vehemently ingrained into our inner concious fabric through generations of solidarity until our ancestors lost out our internal familial peace where the Qing dynasty failed his people to the West/Japan with the Century of Humiliation.
Western religious history and narrative is one fraught with master-slave savior-savee god and his followers and competing interpretations of the biblical texts therefore causing seemingly intergenerationally perpetual Holy War conflicts, aggresive exploitation of religious enemies, and war to conquest others to occupy religious superiority and “englightrnment” to them through pillaging villages and indoctrinating the “superior” religion into others through newly erected religious institutions. ....Confucianism has none of that. Heck, Buddha respects his followers worshipping of other Gods. Though the other religions respect you for worshipping other Gods is of their own issue.
Additionally Confucianism culture teaches us to not seek for extraneous help for fear of looking weak (maintaining ‘perception amnagement’ just like we curate our happy social-media happy moment reel to manipulate a certain image in the shared 3rd digital/cyberspace dimensional realities) and keep family matters private as to not air-out dirty laundry in order to ‘save face’ and not being shame to the family name — as in defeat and loss of status. But the crux of the matter is that the family systems dynamic is vehemently unhealthy due to intergenerational trauma and familial tug-of-war narcissism, especially given that immigrant parents self-sacrifice to economically bust their butts but along cling onto their children for emotional security in this new foreign world as we try to forge our own narratives and identity. The more we grow to be American with individuality,the more it counteracts the intergenerational Confucianism familial planning in the name of maintaining the preservation the lineage successive dynastic ‘family name’. (Indians are in the extreme with arranged marriages) Luckily for me my parents despite their narcissism are open-minded cosmopolitan individuals and don’t mind me Americanizing and imposed any racial dating restrictions.
The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment https://www.amazon.com/dp/0787908703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_rA1-AbZS1J063
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_dB1-AbVQXAZTN
Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439129436/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_NB1-AbN0P827E
Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1572245611/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ND1-Ab94P47XX
Buy her a present
https://www.amazon.com.au/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/
Don't know your story, but a friend of mine recommended "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" by Lindsay Gibson.
Find here.
Really helped me to understand how my childhood (alcoholic father, bipolar mother) has affected my relationships and sense of self as an adult.
Entschuldigung dass ich erst so spät antworte, aber dein Beitrag geisterte schon ein paar Tage durch meinen Kopf. Wenn du mehr Informationen über emotionalen Missbrauch oder Vernachlässigung brauchst dann möchte ich dir folgende Bücher ans Herz legen:
Das Drama des begabten Kindes und die Suche nach dem wahren Selbst
Running on Empty : Overcome Your Childhood Emotional Neglect (findest du auch auf libgen)
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents
Die drei Bücher in der Reihenfolge lesen, vielleicht erkennst du dich ja wieder.
Oof, I hope you know that your friend is the asshole here. Being touch-deprived is absolutely a thing. Next time you're apartment-hunting, keep in mind that cats really do help.
Also based on what you've said about your family, this could be really helpful
I have a bipolar manic depressive father that never got medication or help until I was an adult. My mother is a codependent nightmare who came from a house where she and her siblings were physically abused everyday by my grandfather that was orphaned at age six.
They were both unequipped to raise a child. They never really developed emotionally. I have been in therapy for a long time to help me out. I have two kids and I want to be the best dad possible.
I found a book that has been very helpful. I will include a link here.
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents
I recommend you give your husband the books “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_w9yLDbYT1K69C
and Stop Walking on Eggshells
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1572246901/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_w-yLDbM2PS9HF
This book was amazing for me: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ujA8CbS6WANXT
Boy, do I have a book for you! It's called "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents."
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626251703/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_Toj2Cb2MR5C67
You're welcome! I've found this book to be the most useful in recovery. It has checklists in it which make it really hard for denial-stricken survivors of families like this to keep denying there's a problem.
Hmm...well, therapy was an enormous help for me. But I know not everyone has insurance that covers it. I also dealt with severe physical abuse, so maybe the books I read won't work for you.
However...I recommend this:
http://www.amazon.com/Trapped-Mirror-Children-Narcissists-Struggle/dp/0688140718
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1439129436/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2/175-5751338-3289757?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=1SHX5JYKVB1D1XTKMJZM&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687542&pf_rd_i=0688140718
http://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51p3IsmSqxL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR107%2C160_&refRID=0GAX75MV0QW96MAX79QS
These are not books I have read. The one I did read was "Adult Children of Abusive Parents". http://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Abusive-Parents-Emotionally/dp/0345363884
That covers a lot of narcissistic issues as well, so while abuse doesn't seem to be an issue (although, when you do your soul-searching, you might uncover some truths that your parents maybe were emotionally abusive to you) it could be a very helpful book.
On those links on Amazon, if you scroll down it will show you similar books. Peruse them. Some are crap, others are very good. In every book, there will be info you will disagree with, or info that does not apply to you. That's ok. Focus on the info that resonates with you and applies to you.
And I warn you, it might be a painful experience, and things that happened a long time ago that did not make sense at the time, may suddenly make sense now that you can see their motivation behind their actions.
Best of all, however, is if you follow through, do the soul searching and most importantly, establish and stick with parameters that are right for you (and nobody else can say what is right for you) you will feel liberated. The guilt will be gone. You'll be able to throw off this huge weight you've been burdened with for so long that you likely don't even realize you've been carrying this stress around. I can tell just by what little you have shared that you harbor extreme guilt and worry that you are doing the 'wrong' thing and owe them more and are not being fair to your parents. All of which reflects that they have been very successful at emotionally manipulating you for their very selfish, narcissistic reasons.
Hope this helps!
Edit: I re-read your question of "what can you do" for the feeling bad that breaking away from your parents brings?
Time. Time, and sticking to your guns. I remember the first time I informed my parents of certain parameters by writing to them. I was ready to go out and buy a nice card, and my friend stopped me and said simply use a page of regular binder paper. I felt like I was committing some crime. As time passed and the initial shock was over, I slowly realized that placing parameters and refusing to allow myself to be emotionally manipulated was wonderful! You will stop feeling guilty and 'bad'. You will think, 'why did I not do this earlier'? You will develop confidence and realize you are doing the absolute right, moral and correct thing.
And, you may be sad and hurt, and even angry that your parents did what they did for so long.
So, be kind to yourself, accept that this is a process that won't change over night, and trust the process.
NTA from what I've read here.
A few comments.
> I feel really bad but I really don't have any other solution for this
you can truly turn temporary defeat or negative circumstances into opportunities of an equivalent benefit with enough inventiveness.
> given how she surprised me with this trip out of nowhere, I don't even know what to do....
you can find books on subjects like this. not to offend but Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents might be worth a read, and in all earnest I might need it more.
anyhow, you're NTA but it's probably also important to recognize that this loomed enormous in her life given she was in a rehab facility, she was probably scheming of ways to connect.
"It's harder to be kind than to be clever" is something Jeff Bezos, the richest man alive cited as a defining piece of advice given to him in his life. I think it's true, and it's especially true of children with troubled parents.
The best thing I've learned from trying to teach myself about this (because therapists suck) is that you cannot force others to change. So it's the sad, but correct decision to just move on. permanently. No contact.
What's worse is your mom may also actually have no clue and may just be lying to cover up that she can't remember and wants to save face, or genuinely wrongly thinks that's how it went (gaslighting herself).
While not everything applied. I actually went through this book (below) once diligently, taking notes, highlighting things, using the materials the author recommends, and it helped me to remember so much more, make sense of so much more, find ways to cope with things or reassure myself I'm not crazy to just have to move on, and also give myself a little bit of "hey, careful not to bring this forward a generation by beginning to do it yourself."
It was shocking how validating it was and how many things applied to either or both of my parents, other parts of my family, or even myself at times since I was raised to think this was all normal. But it was also shocking to see how others have it so much worse in some regards.
It's called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson and I think it was excellent.
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=adult+children+of+emotionally+parents&qid=1566551809&s=books&sr=1-2
Just going to take a stab in the dark...
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents 1st Edition
https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703/
Divorcing a Parent: Free Yourself from the Past and Live the Life You've Always Wanted
https://www.amazon.com/Divorcing-Parent-Yourself-Always-Wanted/dp/044990590X/
I started reading this book after I wrote that comment, and I'm finding it enormously helpful, maybe you would, too:
http://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703
What is it about weddings that makes people into such entitled assholes?
You're NTA, OP, in the strongest possible terms.
My mom did the exact same thing, down to the literal tantrum, before my wedding, and I wish I'd put my foot down and stuck with my original "no". It's tough, because it is just a day, and having my cousin there didn't ruin my wedding or my memories of it, but my mom's behavior certainly tainted the day and our relationship from that point on.
Your mom's not going to change, and you have to decide if this is the hill you want to die on, but you are most assuredly NTA if you go through with it.
(This book helped me a lot. You may want to check out r/raisedbynarcissists as well for coping strategies.)
> I don't know if it's a trait I've inherited from my Dad as he's pretty "beta"
Kids want to see their parents as flawless. They want to respect them, etc. It's a natural thing to do.
Your dad is 'pretty beta', so you've unconciously learned and adapted to be 'lesser' than him, in order to keep seeing him as a respectable man you look up to and learn from.
Kids adapt to please their parents when they (the parents) are emotional immature people.
This book might help you with it.