Reddit reviews Arrogance and Scheming in the Big Ten: Michigan State's Quest for Membership and Michigan's Powerful Opposition

There are many fans that don't realize that the Michigan - Notre Dame game is not as frequently played as the media would have you believe. While the MSU - Notre Dame rivalry is much more frequent. Plus we have a traditional trophy!

I'm sure someone will post a rivalry bot...


ND and Michigan have officially only played 36 times. The first 3 were in 1899, 1900 and 1902...and then, for many reasons that I don't really want to go into, they stopped playing. (There are records that predate 1899 for games but back then Michigan was "taking it on themselves" to teach other schools how to play football and would travel to campuses and "play" games...though they weren't really games, more like scrimmages, or glorified practices. Michigan kept score, but the other team didn't and most believe that there was some "fudging" of the rules back then by the Michigan club members as there were no standardized rules for football. Michigan won all 3 when ND was still trying to establish their program. They did not play again until WWII, where they split a home and home series in 42 and 43. After that, the series was not revived until 1978, and they played every year between 1978 and 1982. 1985 and 1994, 1997 and 1999, 2002 and 2014. So the series has been sporadic.

The series itself is 16-19-1 with Michigan winning 19 games, to ND's 16 and a single tie. But since after 1936 when the modern game of college football we know and love (I use 1936 because that was the first year the AP attempted to crown a national champion, and cover college football on a national scale) the series is even 16-16-1

Meanwhile, ND and MSU have played 64 times, which makes MSU the 5th most frequent opponent for ND behind Navy (90 games), USC (88 games), Purdue (83 games), and Pitt (67 games). Those are the only 5 opponents that ND has played 60+ games against in their 117 football seasons.

ND's record against MSU is 35-28-1, with the 1 being one of the most famous games in College Football lore (which many believe ushered in the modern era of college football because the TV demand for the 1966 game was so high, it proved that CFB on TV could be a viable money maker for TV networks and schools - CFB started exploding in the media in the wake of that game.)

The 28 wins for MSU over Notre Dame represent the second most wins over ND for any program. Only USC (37) has more.

MSU and ND's first game was in 1918 when the school that would be come MSU was still establishing itself. ND won, and then the series stopped until 1948, after WWII. The rivalry was born because MSC president John Hannah could not find opponents to help legitimatize and grown MSC's athletics program to make a bid for the B1G. MSU's football program at the time was exploding, and many of the Midwestern powers at the time did not want to schedule independent MSC because they'd probably lose. So Hannah contacted ND president Fr. John Cavanaugh and asked him. ND was, themselves, in a pretty good position to take on a top team near by and Cavanaugh realized the potential of a series. So, Cavanaugh not only said yes, but also agreed to a five year series, in which MSU would get 3 home games.

Thus the series was born, and most MSU fans who know the story are forever grateful for ND's help back then...which is part of the reason why the rivalry is different/fun for a lot. We really are pretty close together, our football programs have had a long run of intertwined history, and there is a mutual respect. We have a lot of alum in Chicago living among the ND alum, and subway alum as well. Most more experienced ND fans, and the ND alum in my family generally agree that the MSU-ND series is a more special experience for them, despite the fact that the media, national especially, pimps the M - ND series because of the flash of it all.

Many believe Michigan was leading a black ball...there's a lot of that in the history of MSU/Michigan both in athletics and beyond. There's a lot of negative history between Michigan and ND too. If you want to know the reason why so much hate exists read the book: "Arrogance and Scheming in the Big Ten: Michigan State's Quest for Membership and Michigan's Powerful Opposition"

It's a tough read, the writer is pretty....dry...it read like a medical textbook (I'm a Health Sciences Librarian, I read medical scholarship most of my day...trust me on this one!) However, the research that went into it is solid, and it's exploration of why MSU fans/alum are the way they are toward Michigan in general. We're working to get over it off the field as many of the University of Michigan institutional policies that were working toward the marginalization of other state higher education institutions were eliminated by former Michigan President James Duderstadt in the 1990's, but there is a 125+ year history of belittlement beyond athletics for us and them to get over! A history that many fans, and media members don't really understand.

This book describes the Big Ten admission issue at length.

Maybe cause we didn't get into the big ten until 1950? Possibly because U of M consistently tried to vote for us not to join?
Here's a book on it: https://www.amazon.com/Arrogance-Scheming-Big-Ten-Membership/dp/0615584195 with the title "Arrogance and Scheming in the Big Ten: Michigan State's Quest for Membership and Michigan's Powerful Opposition"
Edit: Downvoted with a source, neat.

Fuck Michigan

https://www.amazon.com/Arrogance-Scheming-Big-Ten-Membership/dp/0615584195

You should read up on the history of the relationship if you think the hard feelings between UM and MSU was a recently started "narrative." Here's a well-researched book on the subject.

> But when the University of Chicago dropped from the Big Ten in 1946, Michigan State was primed to join. Nebraska, Notre Dame, Iowa State, Marquette and Pitt also were considered. But MSU ultimately was tabbed in May 1949 and began competition in 1953.

See more at: http://btn.com/2014/06/30/a-look-back-at-the-last-three-big-ten-expansions/#sthash.y9qRnTrF.dpuf

http://www.amazon.com/Arrogance-Scheming-Big-Ten-Membership/dp/0615584195

Uh.....

MSU's quest for admittance is pretty interesting. Add to it Michigan getting booted from the conference, and being the mover and shaker of the two most recent expansion waves, and I think we're doing fine.