Reddit reviews Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001

Here's an extremely abbreviated version of what happened: the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, we decided to punch them in the nuts, so we began arming and training large numbers of Afghan freedom fighters.

They began punching the Russians in the nuts. The Russians eventually were like, fuck this dude, we're out, and withdrew.

Natch, we were all "OMFG YES WE'RE THE BEST. Now on to other things" and totally moved on from the conflict.

By arming these freedom fighters we had created basically a system of well armed warlords. The power vacuum left by the Russians created intense fighting and strife. The Taliban expanded in this vacuum, offering relative peace.

Oh, and somewhere a congressman was fucking around so they made a movie about it.

For a real in depth, actual learning experience about this I strongly recommend Ghost Wars by Steven Coll: http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076

Not to mention that the idea of the Taliban running a perfect country is also laughable.

However, there are some more interesting complexities in this. From what I remember reading Ghost Wars (fucking brilliant book by the way), the Taliban were influenced by radical interpretations of Islam as was bin Laden's al-Qaeda, and both received money through Pakistan's ISI (their version of the CIA) and wealthy Saudi donors, as well as direct support from ISI in terms of logistics, supplies, and so on. Another layer of complexity, however, was that the Taliban evidently did not give a hoot about the US and bin Laden's conception of the US as the enemy to be toppled--they were just concerned about gaining power in Afghanistan and keeping to themselves, which makes sense considering that many of the Taliban were basically school-teachers and goat-herders turned Islamic radicals. Their Supreme Commander Mohammad Omar is said to have never have even been on an airplane or outside of his province of Kandahar, and thought the US a foreign irrelevance.

This latter fact (again, I think I recall these tidbits correctly) is probably a good explanation for why the Taliban and al-Qaeda are at odds. Imagine just minding your own business, trying to do your own take-over-the-country thing and not minding the superpowers of the world, and suddenly the actions of some dude the Taliban thought were chill and all suddenly invited the biggest superpower in the world to invade the country and completely destroy the power and 'legitimacy' of the Taliban.

Yeah, I'd be pissed at al-Qaeda too. Haha.

>What you're expecting is Pakistan to stand when we want them to and sit when we tell them to. Thats not how International relations work.

It's your fucking mess. Seriously.

The Pakistani ISI built the fucking Taliban to take proxy control of Afghanistan. The vast majority of the Taliban having been indoctrinated in Pakistani Madrasas for Afghan Refugees, the program was directed by a political ally of Bhutto. Mushareff sent 20,000 regular Frontier Corps and Army troops to help them complete the takeover after the Northern Alliance kicked the Talibans ass. Without the Pakistani military intervening, the Taliban would not have become as powerful as they did, and instead of planning to drop buildings in New York, Osama would have been more concerned with trying to stay alive and thus his support of KSM would have been limited..

In fact of the 45,000 or so "Afghani Taliban" attacking the Northern Alliance, only 14,000 were Afghani. The vast majority were Pakistani, regular military as pointed out, along with some Arabs and others supplied by Osama. The breeding ground for the 9/11 attacks were built directly with Pakistani Military support.

Iraq, totally our mess. Afghanistan, Your fucking mess.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB227/17.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1340244/Afghanistan-resistance-leader-feared-dead-in-blast.html
http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076
http://www.amazon.com/Massoud-Intimate-Portrait-Legendary-Afghan/dp/0982161506
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/inside-the-taliban-3274/Overview

In Steve Coll's Ghost Wars he discusses how between 2000 and 2500 stinger missiles were given to the mujahideen during the Soviet invasion and that after the Soviet withdrawal the US set about attempting to recover these munitions. He alleged that:
>the total cash spent by the CIA on Stinger repurchaes during the mid-1990's rivaled the total cash donations by other sections of the U.S. government for humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan during those years. The Stinger repurchases may have improved aviation security, but they also delivered boxes of money to the warlords who were destroying Afghanistan's cities and towns.

...
>The going rate per missile ranged between $80,000 and $150,000. Pakistan's intelligence service handled most of the purchases on a subcontract basis for the CIA, earning an authorized commission for each missile collected.

I was reading the Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 and it talked about how the American government was promoting a jihad against communism in Central Asia and paid to have Qurans translated into Uzbek and giving arms to radicals in the hope of triggering an anti-Soviet jihadi movement in the region. It's mentioned in this article as well:

>It did not have to be this way. Western intelligence during the Cold War always saw the region as poised for revolt, a potential dagger aimed at the heart of the "evil empire." During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA had copies of the Koran translated into Uzbek and smuggled across the border in the hopes of starting an anti-Soviet jihad among the USSR's Muslims.

> only the afghan mujahideen were supported by the U.S. the 'afghan arabs' never got a dime from the U.S.

You need to read Steve Coll's Ghost Wars and perhaps get some perspective on what a meaningless assertion that is.

For one, The U.S. did quite a bit of operating through proxies in the region, who were very indiscriminate regarding who they sold to. Aid took the form not only of direct cash disbursements, but discounts on arms. Trying to claim bookkeeping technicalities is like saying you didn't spend your grocery money on the lottery ticket because you actually spent your laundry money.

Second, the leadership in the U.S. most certainly did prefer any sort of Islam over Soviet communism. William Casey, director of the CIA at the time, sold U.S. involvement in Afghanistan on the premise that Christians owed support to fellow "religions of the Book" over atheists.

We also printed Qu'rans in a multitude of languages to help inspire the mujahideen of the region. Steve Coll's book Ghost Wars is a great look at American covert action in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Amazon link

>Yeah, so? Iran was undergoing a violent revolution to free itself from Americon tyranny. What's your point?

Since when were we talking about Iran. Were talking about Pakistan here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_U.S._embassy_burning_in_Islamabad

>[citation needed]. To think that the CIA had no operatives in Afghanistan and Pakistan during the cold war is just beyond retarded! Really retarded. You-have-gotta-be-an- Americon retarded

That's not what I said. I said that the only way Pakistan would allow the CIA to fund the rebels fighting the soviets was if they were allowed to choose whom the money and weapons went too. If you'd like a source I'd suggest you go read this book. CIA agents were not allowed into Afghanistan or even near the border during the Soviet invasion due to fear that they would be caught by the Soviets.

http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076

Or any book on the subject for that mater, it's pretty obvious you don't really know the history.

You realize that by calling me an "Americon retard" you're being a racist by your own definition? Oh the irony.

>Hint: Bigotry against ethnic and national groups is also considered racism according to the UN, dipshit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/y7web/tunisian_olympians_targeted_by_islamist_radicals/c5u62mj

>Patently false considering we know the CIA was intimately and directly involved on the ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the radicalization programme.

Yes and they also had Korans funneled into areas of the Soviet Union to do exactly that. That does not mean that they physically had people on the ground handing out books... Seems odd that someone like your self would be for religious oppression.

>Also what makes you think there weren't CIA double agents inside the ISI?
[citation needed]


>Thanks for conceding on that point.

I'm most certainly not conceding to your point. If you can't even use respectful language your not even worth responding too.

Am re-reading Steve Coll's, Ghost Wars The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001,....started 3 days ago, 400 pages down. ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING, like I am spellbound when I read it, forgetting the present entirely. Read it when it came out which was around 2005, was diggin through my library and picked this up. Forgot how awesome it is.

Ordered Private Empire, ExxonMobil & American Power by the same author, The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. By Lawrence Wright are both pending delivery, so you can guess which I am moving onto next. After an Indian history binge last month, this month am into all things Mujahideen and AQ.

A few that came to mind:
The Great Influenza
Autism's False Prophets
1776
The Greatest Show On Earth
Ghost Wars
The Demon-Haunted World

>Al Qaeda was founded by a Saudi royal

Umm...what? Bin Laden was not a member of the Saudi royal family.

Also, the Bin Laden family is huge. There are members of Osama bin Laden's family that are fashion models in Europe (See: Wafah Dufour bin Laden).

Saud Family

As per the source: http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076

Whilst you're right the Taliban and Mujahidden are separate entities, one coming after the other, to say that 'The US had nothing to do with this organization or their takeover of power in 1996.' is disingenuous at best.

The Taliban very much came from the ashes and socially-politically tilled land the US prepared. They actively fostered a climate of radicalisation and militancy, they even translated the Qu'ran into Russian satellite languages, with their own militant interpretations, and canvassed the Soviet satellites with it. They actively armed, taught, funded, harboured and trained militant behaviour. It's a bit of a stretch that the US had no hand in the rise of the Taliban. They very much prepared the way. That's the sort of ball that doesn't just stop rolling when the Soviets pull out of the country.

• Mohammed Omar, the spiritual founder of the Taliban, was himself Pashtun Mujahidden that fought the Soviet occupation! He actively recruited not only in Madraddahs, but in the Afghan refugee camps from the proxy war the west enabled, and then the other Pashtun Mujahidden factions began to join him.
  
  
• A prominent supporter of Omar and the Taliban, Jalaluddin Haqqani, had his own supporters, the Haqqani Network, which very much WAS set up with the help of the CIA. He's said to be the one who first introduced suicide bombers to Afghanistan. He was an ardent Mujahidden fighter and leader, who now fights for Omar and alongside the Taliban.
  
  The Taliban and the Mujahidden, whilst different, go hand in hand with one another. In many cases the Taliban forces they're fighting very much are connected to the Mujahidden and the Cold War operations:
  
  
• Take for example Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, also former Mujahidden but who set up the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin (HIG) faction. Still fighting against NATO forces, very much maligned by Mohammed Omar's political party, but still part of the Taliban led insurgency. Again a Mujahidden fighter that sets up his own faction with other former Mujahideen fighters, builds a powerbase, maligned by the Taliban when they first came to power but now fight as part of the insurgency.
  
  
• An other prominent Taliban insurgent leader: Sirajuddin Haqqani. Son of the afore mentioned Jalaluddin Haqqani - father - son - Mujahidden - Taliban. The continuity line is there for all to see.
  
  
• The CIA itself had strong links with Pakistan's ISI throughout the 80s and 90s, even at one stage approving its directors, and for the latter half of the 90s the ISI is well known to have supported and worked with the Taliban when Omar first took control. Certainly Omar's role and connection with the Mujahidden helped him come to power. The radicalisation was already there from the Soviet operations, Omar just pointed them in the direction of his own aspirations for Afghanistan using the lessons they'd learned. Pakistan directly favoured backing the winning Pashtun faction as their candidate to take over Afghanistan. When it became clear that faction was going to be Taliban they threw their support behind them.
  
  
• Fazal-ur-Rehman is a pro-Taliban Pakistani that held office in Pakistan under Benazir Bhutto. He is known to have used his connections with the ISI, which the CIA helped become what it is, to in turn help and provide assistance to the Taliban in the 90s. Indirectly again the US-MI6 intervention in the 80s can be followed back to the rise of the Taliban, not just by Pakistan and the ISI discretely offering support as matter of judged foreign policy, but ISI was already infiltrated at the highest levels by a known Taliban sympathiser effectively turning the capability of the infrastructure put in place over to the emerging Taliban through the compromised security at the hands of a radical fundamentalist.
  
  The Taliban is not Mujahidden, that much is true.
  
  "The US had nothing to do with this organization or their takeover of power in 1996" - is most definitely not true. The Taliban are the bastard child of the Frankenstein monster the CIA, MI6, ISI and Saudi Arabia cobbled together in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.
  
  For much more reading with numerous CIA and MI6 testimony, from mid-level all the way up to a director of the CIA, and industry acknowledged (Pulitzer): http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076

Seems like Ghost Wars called into question some of the stories about Wilson's higher level contributions to the war.

You should read Ghost Wars by Steven Coll. It's a historical account of that ends on Sept 10, 2001, so doesn't directly fit your request. That said, it is the most comprehensive overview of the events that led up to 9/11 and the subsequent War on Terror. Pulitzer Prize winner: http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Afghanistan-Invasion-September/dp/1594200076