Reddit Reddit reviews Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived

We found 19 Reddit comments about Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.

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Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived
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19 Reddit comments about Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived:

u/rainer511 · 26 pointsr/Christianity

tldr; There are millions of us that feel the same way. I hope you don't forsake Christ in name in response to those around you who are forsaking Christ in deed.

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I'm writing this during a break at work. Since I have to make it quick, I'll be recommending a lot of books. There is really too much here anyway to do justice to all of the questions you've put up, so even if I were to give a real, detailed response, I would probably have to resort to suggesting books anyway.

> 1.) I don't think that all of the Bible can be taken literally. I strongly believe in the sciences, so I think that Genesis was written either metaphorically or simply just to provide an explanation for creation. Are there others here that believe that or something similar? How do others respond to your beliefs?

There are many, many, many others who believe similarly. And not just recent people responding to evolution, there has long been a tradition of taking Genesis metaphorically. For a good group of scholars and prominent Christians that take a stand for a reading of Genesis that respects the way that science currently understands origins, see the Biologos Forum.

For a good book that shows the error of inerrancy, how it stunts your growth as a Christian and a moral agent, and how inerrancy limits either human free will or God's sovereignty see Thom Stark's excellent new book The Human Faces of God.

> 2.) Why does it seem that Christianity is such a hateful religion? I am very disappointed in many Christians because they spew hatred towards other instead of spreading love. I think that the energy that is going into the hatred that many spew could be used for good. Why aren't we putting these resources towards helping others? This would help bring people in instead of deter them away.

Again, millions of us feel the same way. It makes me sick as well. However, I don't think the answer is forsaking Christ in name in response to others forsaking Christ in deed.

There are many strands of the Christian faith that have strongly opposed violence of any sort. Look into the Anabaptists, the Mennonites. Podcasts from Trinity Mennonite are pretty good.

For a good book about Jesus and nonviolence see Jesus and Nonviolence by Walter Wink.

> 3.) How can people be against gay rights still? This is clearly religious issue and not an issue of morality. If you choose to follow the parts of the Bible that are against homosexuality, then why do you not feel the need to follow many of the other ridiculous laws that are in the Old Testament?

I'd like to stress that, again, there are millions of us that feel the same way. And many, many of those who still believe it's a sin think that we have no place emphasizing that in a world where LGBT teenagers are killing themselves from the humiliation. There are many, many of us that think that whether their lifestyle is "sinful" or not the only thing we should show them is love.

For more about interpreting the Bible in light of today's social issues, see Slaves, Women & Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis by William J. Webb and Sex and the Single Savior by Dale B. Martin.

> Do you believe that the government has the right to say who can and cannot get married? Why can't this just be left up to each individual church?

I'm actually strongly in favor of civil unions for everyone. I wholeheartedly agree that I don't want the government defining marriage... and the only way for the government not to define marriage is for the government to take its hands off marriage altogether; whatever the sexual orientation of those getting married.

> 4.) This was a question that I was asked in my other post that I was unable to answer.

Yes, the penal satisfaction view of atonement has its shortcomings. It's not a completely bankrupt idea, but it takes a lot of nuance to convey it in a way that isn't altogether abhorrent and senseless.

The first Christians believed something similar to what we call today "Christus Victor" atonement.

For a picture of the varied atonement theories available for understanding what Jesus did on the cross, see A Community Called Atonement by Scot McKnight. For a list of ways to understand atonement in a contemporary context, see Proclaiming the Scandal of the Cross by Mark D. Baker. For more on a view of God that is consistent with the love of God as revealed in Jesus, see Rob Bell's Love Wins: A book about heaven, hell, and the fate of every person that ever lived.

> 5.) I asked this in the other post, so I feel that I should ask it here. How many of you do or will teach your children about other religions? Will you present them as options or will you completely write them off?

I'd be wholeheartedly open to exposing them to other religions. And I'd want to do it in a way that does them justice. Most Christian "worldviews" books frustrate me due to the way they portray other's religions. In the long run if you don't accurately portray the rest of the world and you try to shelter your children from it, they'll simply feel betrayed when they grow up and finally learn what's out there.

I believe Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I actually believe this. Why wouldn't I try to raise my children as Christians?

But again, I wouldn't want to misrepresent the other religions and I certainly wouldn't want to shelter my children from them. For a book that I feel shows the good from many of the world's most prominent religions, see Huston Smith's The World's Religions.

u/MoonPoint · 10 pointsr/atheism

The Time article Is Hell Dead? covers Rob Bell's book
Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived
. He's a pastor of a church that attracts 7,000 people every Sunday. He's also written Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality, Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile and Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith.

The description for Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile states:

>There is a church not too far from us that recently added a $25 million addition to their building. Our local newspaper ran a front-page story not too long ago about a study revealing that one in five people in our city lives in poverty. This is a book about those two numbers. Jesus Wants to save Christians is a book about faith and fear, wealth and war, poverty, power, safety, terror, Bibles, bombs, and homeland insecurity. It's about empty empires and the truth that everybody's a priest. It's about oppression, occupation, and what happens when Christians support, animate and participate in the very things Jesus came to set people free from. It's about what it means to be a part of the church of Jesus in a world where some people fly planes into buildings while others pick up groceries in Hummers.

u/ldpreload · 9 pointsr/Christianity

Possible answers include:

  1. Actually, nobody is good enough. The Christians you know are, on their own merit, going to Hell. The non-Christians are also going to Hell. The Christians are saved from Hell by grace "through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." A perfectly almighty and just God would send everyone to Hell; an almighty, just, and yet loving God manages to save some people on the grounds of something other than their being good.

  2. It is certainly possible that a loving God would save people and let them enter heaven even if they do not manage to believe all the doctrines like they're "supposed" to, and whatever the condition is, it is neither being morally superior or being theologically better-read. "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

  3. Actually, popular theology is all wrong and that's not how heaven and hell work at all, and this is, though heterodox, Biblically sound.
u/Flyby34 · 5 pointsr/Christianity

Hell is one of many areas that Christians have a good deal of disagreement and/or uncertainty about.

One Christian approach to the question of hell is the hope or belief that everyone will go to heaven, which is known as universalism. This theory was raised by Origen in the 3rd century, so it's an idea almost as old as Christianity itself. A good assessment of universalism by a Catholic priest is here. A Protestant pastor named Rob Bell published a book on this topic last year, which generated plenty of debate among Christians.

In response to your suggestion that a more just God would put everyone in heaven, imagine a hockey game where the referee didn't send any player to the penalty box, even if some players were committing lots of hockey sins. Would this seem like a just hockey game to you?

u/BayronDotOrg · 3 pointsr/changemyview

> I know people will say "but some Christians support gays rights" yes, that's absolutely, but this support come from cherry picking the Bible.

 

One thing to understand is that just about every perspective about the bible is the result of cherry picking. The argument goes something like this:

 

  • Person A: "The teachings in the bible are good!" (insert verses about love and acceptance)

  • Person B: "You're ignoring all the bad stuff." (insert verses about sin and judgment)

     

    Both people here are ignoring the verses that don't support their positions. If you're going to use Leviticus, then Christianity doesn't hate you any more than it hates people who braid their hair, shave their beards, sell their land, or eat animal fat. How is it that Christians don't see any of those things as sin, but homosexuality is? That's a human distinction, not a biblical one.

     

    The bible isn't the divinely inspired word of God, it's not inerrant, and it never claims to be. People made that claim long after it was written. It's best to think of the Bible not as a book of ultimate truth, but as a library of poems, letters, songs, and myths that we can use to make sense of our experience.

     

    It's the menu, not the meal.

     

    I feel your reservations about respecting the religion are grounded in a pushback against those who think every word of their modern, 20th Century English translation of these ancient texts is to be taken at face value and followed to the tee.

     

    This simply isn't how the religion is supposed to work.

     

    More and more of us are moving to a place where we don't think of God as a fixed point, but as more of a direction. And so we no longer see Christianity as a fixed set of lifestyle choices and beliefs, but as a fluid, ever-evolving journey to connect with the Divine.

     

    The Greek word "Theos" comes from the Greek "Theo" which means to run or flow.
    Our word Spirit comes from the Latin "spirare," meaning breath. The very idea of God is one of movement, rhythm, oscillation, expansion and contraction. When living organisms stop doing these things, it's because they're dead. So whenever an institution sets out to crystallize God, it starts killing God.

     

    BUT, books like Rob Bell's Love Wins and John Philip Newell's The Rebirthing of God paint a more optimistic picture of the future of the Christian faith - a future in which Christianity is understood to be a living, breathing organism that continues to evolve and mature.

     

    I guess my point in saying all this is that I think your real problem is with the bible, not the religion, so don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You quoted a couple verses in Matthew about the law, but you missed this one: "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets." That basically says if you read the law and consequently become a bigot, you've missed the whole point.

     

    Don't think Christianity is about bigotry, just because a shitload of Christians do. Yes, Moses wrote a list of rules for the Levites to follow, and yes, Paul wrote a letter with commandments to a church in Corinth. But there's no reason to act as though those letters were written to us. "Person A told Person B that God wanted them to do X 2000 years ago, therefore God also wants me to do X today." That's ridiculous, and a lot of us have come to realize that.

     

    Humanity has evolved in the past 2000 years, and Christianity is admittedly a bit slow on the uptake, but we're evolving too. So instead of writing it off as hateful and destructive, I'd follow Wayne Gretzky's famous advice, and look where the puck is going, rather than where it is.
u/sirsam · 3 pointsr/AskHistorians

> Were there/are there today sects of Christianity that don't emphasize hell very much, if at all?

There are actually Christians that don't believe in Hell (Unitarian Universalists come to mind), but that's not true of most denominations that you'll encounter in the US. A pastor named Rob Bell actually published a book recently which suggested that all people might be eventually saved, even after death. It was controversial, and he got torn to shreds by some better biblical scholars.

But that's all very current and you're asking more about the development of the doctrine. I suggest reposting this question in /r/Christianity; there are many scholars there better educated than I, and I'm sure it would provoke some excellent discussion.

u/TheDGJ · 3 pointsr/todayilearned

I recently read a fantastic book on just this subject - Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Written by a fairly progressive minister, its about how little of what most popular Christian discourse on judgment and afterlife is actually founded in scripture.

I thought it was great. Currently has 3.5 stars on Amazon; I'd bet a nickel that many of the 161 1-star reviews are from fundamentalists who disagree with his message.

edit: 3 minute youtube teaser - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g

u/ransom00 · 3 pointsr/Christianity

>If we are as freely able choose as God, how is God punished if he fails to love us? In fact, how is God punished for failing to love Esau? Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:13)

I don't really understand your sentence. How does our ability to choose have to do with God being punished? Or even with us being punished?
We only punish ourselves by not choosing God, since it keeps us from living the abundant life we could have if we did.

As for Jacob and Esau, that's a quote of Malachi 1. In that prophecy, God is answering Israel's claim that God hasn't loved them, but showing how he has favored them in land over "Esau," which means the Edomites. Esau was understood to be the father of that people group. This doesn't mean that God literally hated the person Esau.

Likewise in Romans, Paul is quoting that to make a theological point about who is "in" as regards Israel, saying that simply being a physical descendant of Abraham doesn't make you a part of the family. It also shows that God in his wisdom chooses certain people for certain purposes, and that that is God's free choice.

Thus, this has nothing to do with whether or not God actually loved the actual person Esau. God clearly loves all people and wants them to love him back (1 Tim 2:4, for example).

>And who was the ultimate author of that temptation. Who allowed the serpent into the garden just as he allowed Satan to torture Job?

God does not tempt us (James 1:13). Satan does, because God allows him to. (I'm not sure I believe in a literal powerful evil being like Satan, but I do believe in evil spiritual forces.) Permitting something to happen is not the same as causing it. As for Job, God only allowed Job to be so tempted, because he had confidence that Job would remain faithful and not curse God.

>There you go again with that word "naturally", as though Jesus had nothing to do with it. Jesus personally cursed Adam and Eve for eating of the fruit (Genesis 3).

First of all, why do you keep referring to Jesus as the agent here? Jesus means the Second Person of the Trinity incarnate in a man, which hadn't yet happened...

God is not the "first cause of sin." Humans are the ones who sinned. God did not make them do so. God enforced the consequences of sinning, which are "natural" in the sense that they are a necessary consequence of doing things our way instead of God's way. I suppose you could get into the theoretical questions about whether or not God had to have created the universe in such a way that disobedience led to certain consequences, but that's a pointless question since there is no way to know the answer.

Per your obvious anger about God's command that they kill, I don't have an obvious answer. It's confusing to me, too. I could hazard a guess, but I'm not sure I even believe that, so I won't.

>Matthew 7:13-14 says that only a few humans will ever be saved. What kind of a dip shit god can only manage a .125 batting average?

That isn't exactly what it says. God doesn't manage a saved/unsaved batting average. God draws all people to himself, but some people refuse to accept him. Jesus isn't saying God damns anyone to the road that leads to destruction, he just says few people find it. If you've been outside of your house recently, you'll probably notice not many people are finding that road based on the number of assholes in the world.

Also, there are several people who think that eventually all will be saved. I'm not sure I buy that argument, but it is a viable option I think. Check out the book Love Wins for a very recent expression of it. (He makes good points, but his writing style is atrocious.)

Finally, we are under the curse of sin without our choosing, but it was our "parents" in the human race who caused that to be, not God. God is working out it in his time frame, but there are signs of the way things are in many miracles as well as acts of love and service in the name of Jesus. God, in his mercy, allows the human race to continue so that his church can witness to his name in hopes that all will be saved. Eventually, Jesus will return to inaugurate his reign whether anyone likes it or not, but when that will be no one knows.


u/JonZ1618 · 2 pointsr/askphilosophy

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Wins-About-Heaven-Person/dp/006204964X

This book made a lot of waves recently among theists. He does argue that Hell is real, people can go there, and the Christian God is also real, but most of what is thought of regarding Hell is inaccurate.

u/gabroll · 2 pointsr/Christianity

For what it's worth, it appears as though a couple people downvoted you, not the enitirety of /r/Christianity.

And I hope to answer your lofty question from an individual's perspective, that is, my own. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am inclined to believe my faith is shared by Christians who have studied and know their faith, rather than 'cultural Christians' who in my opinion comprise the majority of 'Conservative Right Wing' movements that always get so much air time.

On to my answer. I have heard that all behavior is results driven. This is a larger, more philosophical discussion to be had I'm sure, but let's assume this for the sake of simplicity. Agnosticts, Atheists, Christians, Mormons, Hindus... Our motives may differ in divisive ways, but ultimately they are all for a purpose. A goal. If you look specifically at theists, many are motivated ultimately by fear of judgement or anticipation of reward. Buddhists argue reincarnation to enlightenment, Mormons argue levels of heaven to world ownership, many Christians argue hell to heaven, although I would assume the majority of any of these faith's members do not know well enough the dogmas they both practice and preach.

Being a Christian myself, I am of the inclination that there is a 'reward' and a 'judgement' awaiting each of us, but only as it pertains to our Creator. I should clarify what I mean. I am entirely against the idea of 'heaven' and 'hell' being metaphorical allegories as promoted by a user above (who is not Christian but instead a member of The Course which is far more New Age than Judaistic in nature.) and I believe them to be actual destinations despite our having very little clarification for either. Hell is originally mentioned in different contexts (due to the English lack of similar Hebrew/Greek words, the same with 'love', etc) but certainly not enough for us to make wholesale accounts for the who/what/why/hows of it. I see that 'heaven' is mentioned in more specific context, and yet scripture equally promotes the idea that we clearly have no real concept of what it will be other than an intimate proximity to God. If hell is the opposite, it is not a place created by God, intended for His failures (nor is that descriptive of the character of God in scripture), it is the separation from Him in that it is the propitiation and eventuality of people's denying Him. People don't recognize him here, so He does not force fellowship with Himself later.

Scripture already echoes this in Psalm 81:12, Romans 1:24, etc, when it says "[He] gave them over to their sinful desires." This nods directly to the argument of free will v. predestination, but in essence God loves us and wants to be with us and has provided an easy way to do so that does not have to do with action, but our hearts. Our fellowship with our Creator is more so a challenge of our own individual pride than a call to 'stop smoking' or 'stop drinking.' He merely asks that we deny our pride and acknowledge His Son as having paid our penalty that we can be made flawless to enter in to fellowship with our flawless God. Romans 10:9 examines just how simple a step salvation can be, in that if you 'confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Addressing briefly the concept of works, it is commonly held by Christians that they bear not on our eventual evaluation by God, but rather are an evidence of our faith and proximity to a holy God.

Let me wrap this up. A lot of Christians are still motivated either by anticipation of heaven or fear of hell. Those motivated by 'fear' suffer an unhealthy relationship with God and a misguided perspective of him. And some of those pining for heaven miss the mark as well, still being motivated by a subtle yet selfish hope for what they will get, from the incorrectly interpreted 'mansion' and 'street of gold' to even include our being with God. I don't think this is wrong, but I have found that I believe my faith to be true. Not true for me alone, but the all encompassing, effects-everything truth under which everyone is subject. Because of that, I am often motivated more by my serving God as it pleases Him than because I will benefit. And in that way I suppose it still pleases me that it pleases Him and dissect that as much as you want. As for your question, it is difficult to answer became I am motivated by logic and reason and it's so hypothetical, "What if you just discovered there were no heaven or hell?" I cannot fathom a scenario in which that would play out short of something that both dismisses my own years of study and experience and irrefutably proves that God does not exist in which case, I would not suspend belief but follow the truth (Which, for what it's worth I cannot imagine happening, but since we're discussing hypotheticals...). As for the 'All Dougs Go To Heaven' theology, there are already thousands of Christians who believe that. Rob Bell's "Love Wins" promotes such an outcome for us, however dubious his sources are. And in my personal opinion, if somehow I realized I have been misreading scripture and it led me to that conclusion, still I would be unmoved in my love for God and therefore others as it pertains to eternity, because God has still described and even modeled what is right in regard to our conduct with others. As tempting as a 'free pass' would be to my humanity, my interest in serving God (by His strength) would steer me from much of it. I am certain I would sin. I do currently. But ultimately I am in pursuit of His glorification not/more than my own.

EDIT: I accidentally a word.

u/[deleted] · 2 pointsr/Christianity

'Want some reading material? In order of readability (easiest first) and depth (deepest last) you might start with these:

Love Wins, Rob Bell

Erasing Hell, Francis Chan, a response to Love Wins that pulls some strawman stuff but is otherwise pretty good.

The Fire That Consumes, Edward Fudge, presents essentially what I personally believe (that it's not eternal - what notanartmajor and others referred to as annihilationist). Even though this presented the ideas I most agreed with, I found it to be a little dry.

u/CalvinLawson · 2 pointsr/Christianity

>>Actually, I am reading Christian books still, like this and this. It's evangelicalism I'm studying now...

>Looks more like you are seeking out ways to confirm your bias.

Did you even look at the books I linked to? I'm reading evangelical authors to confirm my anti-evangelical bias? Yes, that makes perfect sense; what better way to confirm your bias than reading people who contradict it?

But that doesn't matter, I've already determined Evangelicalism is evil. I don't need any more confirmation than I already have. I'm studying it now to learn how to best undo the damage they have done to my family, my community and my nation. I won't be happy until Christian fundamentalism is another sad bookmark in history that future Christians are embarrassed about.

>ou being convinced of it has nothing to do with its accuracy or any of your other claims.

You're right. [It] has nothing to do with their accuracy, it has everything to do with them being unfalsifiable; grounded in faith based reasoning. I don't have to be convinced they are wrong because I'm convinced they are spurious.

Here's a great quote from this book that sums up how I feel about Christians:

"Have you ever heard people make claims about a select few being the chosen and then claim that they're not part of that group?"

That's you guys, in a nutshell. Delusions of grandeur; puffed up by your faith in the divine nature of your religion. No thanks.

You, you're no threat to atheism, who would anybody want to be like you? But Rob Bell, it's people like him that give Christianity a fighting chance.

u/US_Hiker · 1 pointr/atheism

I should have perhaps written "Jesus thought that Lust is bad" etc etc.

As far as what Jesus believed in about Hell, it was likely hugely different than what Christians believe in today. For one, there's no mention that heterodoxy (wrong belief) would send you there. The only people in hell or punished were there for heteropraxis (wrong action). As such, though he felt lust was hugely harmful, I don't think he considered it Hell-worthy. There was a recent book written detailing many of the arguments this way. Love Wins, by Rob Bell. I haven't read it yet, but heard good things from some theologians/clergy I know (and horrible things from the more fundie/evo side in the US). Basically, there is shockingly little support for the orthodox version of Hell that we all know about.

Similarly, the Christian concept of original sin is unrecognizable to Jews, and very likely to Jesus (at least we have nothing extant from Jesus talking about it). Our concept of O.S. comes from Paul, and it's so counter to what most Jews think of it that it's one of their main reasons not to convert to Christianity. FWIW, it's one of the big reasons that I don't think Christianity is a successor to Judaism and became a no-longer Christian. Read this and this or this. There was a small subgroup w/in Judaism who believed in inherited sin, as mentioned in a couple of the more apocalyptic books we have from the time (detailed here). If Jesus was just an apocalyptic itinerant preacher, he might have believed in it. To what extent though, we don't know, as the doctrine is based off of Paul's book of Romans, not the Gospels.

u/jayratch · 1 pointr/politics

>It seems everyone in this thread is forgetting that with jesus came the idea of hell and eternal punishment.

This is not the case.

I could explain, but I'll point you to the book "Love Wins" by newly controversial Christian author Rob Bell. In the book (and I'm sure you can get secondary analysis through the Google without buying the book) Bell debunks the popular mythology of hell.

u/Heald · 1 pointr/Christianity

Have a look at Love Wins by Rob Bell http://www.amazon.com/Love-Wins-About-Heaven-Person/dp/006204964X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319375309&sr=8-1 and Erasing Hell by Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-about-eternity-things/dp/0781407257/ref=pd_sim_b_5

They both discuss the issues that you are struggling with.

u/Ottermotive_Insanity · 1 pointr/Christianity

Love Wins is a great read if you're questioning Hell. I'm not saying I base my belief on it, but it addresses your questions with the answers you want.

But I don't even believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment, so I guess I don't believe in Hell, and I'm a Christian.