Reddit reviews The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Case for ... Series)
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The Case for Christ A Journalist s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus Case for Series
Nice idea, but Christ was a real person, documented in both religious and secular documents.
What follows is not meant to be disrespectful, but I think you are missing the entire point of what the Christian Faith is.
You cannot overlook the evidence.
Chris was actually killed and rose from the dead seen by over 500 witnesses
If you look at the evidence and decide that it is worth looking at what Jesus actually stood for.
There are actually over 300 "Q Type" prophecies in the old testament, that are all fufilled in a single man, Jesus Christ. These are prophecies that took place over 400 years before he came.
If nothing else, take a look at the evidence in light of "Q type" prophecy.
Two good books are
The case for Christ
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310345863?aaxitk=9l74.ycRWveaIQm-t.ZSYw&pd_rd_i=0310345863&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3534726502&pd_rd_wg=81HhE&pf_rd_r=7FYJ4V7SAWEVC6JM4FA7&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=eRa1R&pf_rd_i=the+case+for+christ&pd_rd_r=ff665252-4ebd-4d59-b4cf-4d52f112cbe2&hsa_cr_id=7480256250101
Evidence that demands a verdict.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401676707?aaxitk=BXAaSaaijsgYqtj3gEbPXw&pd_rd_i=1401676707&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=3534726502&pd_rd_wg=jYd2I&pf_rd_r=93P85JRNR7JSJ5EMWG2M&pf_rd_s=desktop-sx-top-slot&pf_rd_t=301&pd_rd_w=7nLcY&pf_rd_i=Evidence+that+demands+a+verdict&pd_rd_r=e38ece30-f389-4c68-8dcb-ff7abce12a76&hsa_cr_id=5187726210201
As far as your math equation of "we do this and we get that. The bible teaches that salvation is a GIFT' and you cannot do anything to earn it. You could argue that you have to believe, and that is correct, but that is all you can do. In fact the teachings of the bible tell warn against trying to get back
into that mindset.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I am not one to argue that you need to believe the way I believe, but I do see that you are teaching (maybe a strong word) something very different than that the documents that uphold the entire christian faith represent.
Christ also taught us that this world is not our world.
He also taught us that our struggles are not flesh and blood but really against good and evil. (That is what we are seeing)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
The real gospel is very simple and it is a secret.
We are all sinners (everyone)
The penalty for sin is death.
Christ died once for all
He rose again defeating death
He sent his Holy Spirit here to help us
He does not force himself on anyone.
It is impossible to believe in Him without faith. You can argue facts until you are blue in the face, but you will never be able to prove it. Plenty of circumstantial evidence though.
The Case for Christ (the [book][1], although the [film][2] adaptation wasn't horrible) and Cold Case Christianity would probably be good reads for you.
Case for Christ was written by an investigative journalist and legal editor for the Chicago Tribune. It details his transition from Atheism to Christianity, and how his attempt to debunk Christianity lead to him coming to Christ.
Cold Case Christianity was written by a detective who solved a number of high-profile cold cases. He has a similar story, as his book details his conversion from Atheism to Christianity through the use of cold-case investigation techniques.
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310345863/
[2]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6113488/
I'm sort of similar to you. Except I was never a Christian before, I've recently taken up an interest and a desire to learn about it. So far, I've learned a LOT, and whereas before I would call myself probably an agnostic? Now I would say that I believe there is a creator, and that if that's true, it's probably also true that Jesus died and was resurrected..
Anyway, that's beside the point. What I was going to suggest is that reading the bible is great, and of course is the most important thing. But may I suggest some other things that I've read and watched alongside it that helped me understand? It really helps to listen to some arguments from historians, scientists, and people that have spent their lives researching these matters.
For me, I was very concerned about the historical reliability of things etc, such as when the gospels were written, who by. I'm a person that places value on evidence and really struggle to just "believe" things... I wish it wasn't so, but there you go.
Of course, I can only suggest things I've read and watched so far so admittedly this.
The Case for Christ. A journalist sets out to disprove Christianity by interviewing many well respected scholars, and ends up becoming a Christian. There's also a movie based on this which was very good.
More Than A Carpenter. This talks about the life and evidence for Jesus, as well as the reliability of the gospels.
Evidence That Demands a Verdict Admittedly I haven't read much of this yet, its the next one I'm going to tackle. It's quite a difficult read and has a LOT in it.
Cold Case Reliability of the Gospels. A video where a Cold Case detective discusses whether the gospels would stand up to the same scrutiny that he applies to cold cases. Very interesting if a bit long (I urge you to power through the beginning, I was a bit put off when he started talking about his daughter being a Marine).
Hugh Ross. If you have a more scientific mind and struggle to come to terms with Genesis and the Flood etc, Hugh Ross is a great man to watch. He's an astrophysicist that became a Christian, and has many scientific ways to back up whats stated in the bible. There's many videos of him.
From there, you could find many more sources and things to read. By reading Case for Christ, I've decided to read some of the books that are mentioned in it (although I'm still waiting on delivery). I bought a couple of Hugh Ross' books, although only one arrived yet and its very scientific and I don't think its quite what I need to read right now, I'm awaiting another one "The Creator and the Cosmos" and I'd love to read his "A Matter of Days" too which talks about the Genesis days. I also ordered This yesterday which I'm excited to read.
Sorry for the overly log post but I hope it helps. Also this is my first time putting hyperlinks on reddit so I really hope it works properly!
The Case for Christ or I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist
Thank you for the indepth reply.
God has revealed Himself through creation:
>For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Rom 1:20)
I won't discuss a generic creator or pantheon because those are not my beliefs. Just the Christian God to which denomination doesn't matter provided the person accepts that they are a sinner and that they may receive the gift of freedom from sin and it's consequences through Christ alone.
Do you ever feel out of place? Or like things are wrong? Christians agree! We believe that because of sin, creation is corrupt bringing about all kinds of pain and frustration. This is another way that God reveals Himself to some people.
But really, existence is a pretty good argument for God. We exist in the "Goldilocks zone" that is one of very few places in the known universe that can support life. Not only that, but life actually appeared here. Just having the ability to support life doesn't automatically make it happen. In addition, we have intelligent, self-aware life. The math for this to occur is impossible. it can't happen. And yet we're here.
The debates are only necessary because God loves you and called His people to love you as well. There wouldn't be a debate if nobody cared.
God isn't a trickster nor an angry child not careless. His perspective as Creator and master of creation is wildly different from ours but always perfect. That includes a perfect love and a perfect sense of Justice.
If you want to know more about the reliability of eye witness accounts of Christ, I'd recommend Cold Case Christianity where an evidence-based approach is used on the gospels and supporting data. Man, Myth, Messiah also touches on this (and if only $1.99 on Kindle right now). And I understand that The Case for Christ written by an investigative reporter also looks into this but I haven't read that book myself yet.
Religious people don't have that much power. People who claim to be religious might. While 70% of Americans claim a "Christian heritage" only 40% of those people attend church. And only 45% of church attenders read the Bible away from church. Believe me, if more people who claimed to be Christian, actually knew the tenants of the faith you wouldn't have any problem with them being in power. The basics for Christianity start with: love God, love your neighbor, and love your enemy. Christians aren't called to hate gays, but to love them just like everyone else.
The instances of Christians being anti-science is mostly media hype. The scientific process began in the church as a method to explore and understand God's miraculous creation. The Bible isn't a science textbook, it's a collection of books and letters that form a singular narrative. It needs to be read and interpreted from that context.
And science has a lot of holes to be filled, including internal contradictions: quantum mechanics says the Big Bang is bunk, for example. Scientists and philosophers have been working for decades on a way to unify those pursuits called "the theory of everything". Science has faith that will happen. Some of what's called "science" really isn't. For science to be accurate it needs to be observable and repeatable. Here again, the Big Bang fails the test. I'm not anti science, and I suspect the Big Bang is valid, but I see it in Genesis:
> In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [...] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
Maybe that describes Big Bang? Maybe not.
As to how well I know Christ the answer is, "not well enough." Christ followers start by accepting Christ as our Lord and savior for the forgiveness of our sins. Then we change. That change is called sanctification and it happens by getting in relationship and learning from Christ. I mean this literally through prayer and by studying the Bible. God wants to be in relationship with us. The change is to make us more Christ-like. You assume Christ is unaccessible which isn't true. He's alive right now, today. And I am constantly surprised by him and his compassion and sacrifice.
There's a lot of misconceptions about the faith. I'm considering a project to combat that both in popular culture and within the church. That's why I started this thread.
Lol. There's a book that came out in the 80's. Like I said, I never read it so I don't know the details. Here
Books like the one below do exist that attempt to give other evidence for the authenticity of the Bible:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310345863/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525948552&sr=8-1&keywords=the+case+for+christ+book
If you're interested in learning more historical information about the Bible, Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is very enjoyable to read and packed with well-sourced information. It engages very directly with skeptical questions
Anyone claiming that Jesus was invented or that the Jesus worshiped by Christianity today is an accumulation of legends has to at least contend with these facts:
These are just some of the points in favor of the actual, historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. If you want to dive deeper, Lee Strobel's Case for Christ is a favorite of mine and is a book that I like to hand out to our local missionaries.
I see your article and raise you an entire book: The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310345863/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_rp0YAbAB552XY
I've read this book, enough of the Bible, your article, and many others, to know that there is so much out there and so many conflicting views that eventually you just have to go with what you feel is the right answer. I feel that I've had my prayers answered, I feel that the miracle of life is more complex and amazing than can just happen without a divine creator, I feel that there are things out there that just can't be measured by science like love and happiness that we know are real. We could go back and forth forever and never come to an agreement, hence what faith is for.
Now I also have plenty of skepticism and doubt over what's in the Bible. I take what works, makes sense, and is applicable and helpful to my life, and forget the rest. For example I don't believe that there's anything wrong or sinful with homosexuality, or that Noah put all those animals on one boat. But there's plenty in the Bible that are good lessons and good reminders to take with you in your day to day interactions.
I appreciate the article, I do. But I'll continue to say that it just doesn't seem plausible that so many of the people of that time claim to have met this man that we now base our entire standard of telling what year it is off of how long it's been since he lived.
I know your questions were rhetorical but I'd like to get a bit of insight into this.
> Also there are a lot of stories in the bible that have been proven factually inaccurate. If it's wrong about those why would I trust it's stance on whether or not there's a god, or who it is?
The majority of Christians don't believe in the bible literally. Specifically, Catholics make up about 2/3s of Christians and they treat large sections of the Old Testament as allegorical, symbolic, etc... A typical example would be the story about Jonah and the Whale. How do you feel about that, and about those Christian denominations?
> And lastly, as a westerner I can easily dismiss all religions besides Christianity because they were never presented to me as fact. If they're obviously false, what makes Christianity special?
I'd like to answer this question and then have your reflections. Christianity is different from religions like Islam and Mormonism. In those religions the main vehicle for revelation comes from a man who is claiming that God speaks directly to (usually) him and he is just reporting it. For Christians, the main message is coming from a guy called Jesus who claims he IS God, and then does stuff to prove it. A pretty good analysis of this is presented by Lee Strobel in The Case for Christ. While this isn't peer review evidence, the author provides many other sources and further reading. There is ample evidence for establishing the historicity of the New Testament, both from inside and outside the bible. If we can find that Jesus didn't perform those miracles he reported then it is easy to say he lied about everything. But if there is evidence that they occurred, wouldn't that require more attention?
I find your wording confusing . . . I mean I went through a similar period of doubt but after much study came to the conclusion I could choose to believe in Christianity or not, but I knew it would be intellectually dishonest for me to not. It wasn't really a matter of making myself as if I was doing something against my better judgment.
To comment on your specific example, those instincts would be focused on the in group, not humanity in general. So you would cooperate with your group sure but would be fine with treating others poorly. Indeed, we see this in much human behavior. Yet most of us instinctually know that's not right and the Bible certainly demands a higher standard than that.
Anyway, a book that helped me a lot is Don't Check Your Brains at the Door and I'd also recommend the "Case" books by Lee Strobel.
Thank you for giving me some insight into your story and background. And I definitely do understand the concern regarding emotionalism as a basis for truth. I agree with you wholeheartedly - at the end of the day, emotion is a terrible standard by which we judge truth.
There are several intellectual and reasoned arguments for the faith. Jesus Christ was a real man. Several hundred eyewitnesses saw Him risen from the dead. There are excellent resources out there that address the historical facts and claims of Jesus. For example:
However, as a former Mormon, I'm sure you are aware of these resources and arguments.
At the end of the day however, salvation in Jesus isn't found in intellectual arguments. It's not found in reasoning and logical deduction. It is found in a personal relationship with a living and breathing God.
I know as a fact that Jesus is real and Jesus is God. I don't say this based purely on logic. I say it based on my experience. I have personally witnessed unquestionable miracles at the name of Jesus. I have seen incurable medical conditions disappear immediately at the name of Jesus. I have witnessed dead limbs come to life during prayer in the name of Jesus. I have trusted in God's Word which says things like "God will provide for all of your needs" in times when I had no money in the bank account - and God worked miracle after miracle. In one situation, I calculated that I would run out of money in one month but said, "God I trust you". And literally that second I received an email. My university sent me an email saying, "we billed you incorrectly - here's $1,100".
I understand the skepticism to this type of personal experience. Even many Christians doubt that God is real and knowable in an experiential way. But don't take my word for it - here is a medically documented case study in which 24 deaf and blind people were healed immediately during prayer. These are medical doctors and PhD researchers doing scientific studies to see if this is true: it is. It's dense academic writing, but the bottom line is that at the name of Jesus the deaf are hearing and the blind are seeing.
So my challenge remains. I have never once seen God not be faithful to His Word. I have never seen a bridge that Jesus won't cross to bring His children home. Jesus loves you. Jesus wants you to accept His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave as your only hope for salvation. Jesus wants to speak to you right now and give you a life of adventure. I think a really good place to start is this: are you open to Jesus appearing to you in a dream, vision, or very strong impression and telling you that He is the only way? Do you believe that if Jesus is God, then He can do this? A simple prayer to God like this can express your openness:
"God, I really want to know You. Jesus, if You are God, please show me. I am open to whatever way You want to speak. If you're real, I must know. If you're God, I must know."
I know of a Muslim man who prayed this prayer for 3 days straight while fasting. At the end of the 3 days he came to my missionary contact and said that Jesus appeared to him. My contact asked the Muslim what Jesus was like. And the Muslim began describing Jesus straight from the Bible: "He is the image of the invisible God. It was like I was seeing the exact representation of His being!" So this stuff is real - the only question is: How open and hungry are you?
Please read this book. It addresses both of your questions
The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Case for ... Series) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310345863/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_3Z0IAbH6G4K6Q