Reddit reviews The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition

It's been discussed so many times before. I'll just cut to the chase. Open a set of scripture to facsimile #3. There you will read Joseph Smith's claimed translations of the characters over this person or that person's head.

Here you can see the canonized facsimiles that contain real Egyptians characters along with Joseph Smith's claimed transitions. If you buy yourself a book on basic Egyptian you will have everything you need to test Joseph Smith's claim by yourself. There is no need to do the translation yourself. But doing so will bypass the fearful idea Mormons learn at church that equates problems with Joseph Smith as being just "anti-mormon lies".

Joseph Smith got the translation of the characters wrong while making several other verifiable mistakes.

There is no good apologetic response that directly responds to this problem other than to hand wave it away and talk about Nibley parallelisms. Some Mormons are even now claiming that the facsimiles (and the rest of the papyrus) was just inspiration from which to write a non-literal story about Abraham. However, that idea is mostly wishful thinking. Joseph Smith's own words do not support that idea.

That's just the begining, there are dozens of other verifiable problems with the BoA.

Start with the CES letter's section on the BoA.

Then read [The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri by Robert K. Ritner](
https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321)

There are no non LDS egyptologists who believe JS translated any of the Book of the Dead correctly. The book below takes a look at all the translations and the journal entries while JS was translating.

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

Incidentally, the Lowry Nelson letters were the final straw for me. They showed that the essays were not truthful. Clearly, prophets had stated that blacks were less valiant in the preexistence was doctrine. The essays contend otherwise.

In examining church material it became clear that the church lies and covers stuff up.

The other big issue was marrying other men’s wives, young girls, and girls who he was a custodian for while he never got sealed to his children or parents.

Sure.

Native American DNA shows no mid eastern link as described in Book of Mormon and is of Asiatic origin.

Book of Abraham hoax

http://www.amazon.com/The-Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri/dp/1560852321

You can hear Robert Ritner speak on it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

Check out the response of the current professors of UCLA to Muhlenstein's claims.

Next should be Professor Ritner's book The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Editon

Oh yeah, and while ancient languages are never an exact science, the Rosetta Stone makes study of Egyptian Hieroglyphics possible, much more so than just guessing.

In short, no scholar outside a small group employed by BYU and/or apologists for TSCC find the writings on the parchment remotely related to anything about Abraham or Joseph.

Apologists have overused the term "so called scholars" and "so called archaeologists" when dealing with people presenting evidence against the church while not being accredited PhD holders. They attempt to undermine the evidence by looking at the credentials of the person presenting information rather than the material claims of the information.

The defense of the Book of Abraham is often full of this flimsy tactic. Any criticism against translation or historicity of the Book of Abraham commonly asserts that unless you have a PhD in Egyptology, you are not qualified to talk about the BoA authoritatively. If you do have a PhD in Egyptology (Dr. Robert Ritner, "The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition" ), the argument will be waived away as a misinterpretation while assuring everyone else that the church is still true in this arena.

I think this was just published, hadn't seen it here yet. Many of you may have heard of Robert Ritner, a respected never-mo Egyptologist who has taken a special interest in refuting the bad scholarship coming from LDS hacks. He actually trained John Gee, who is one of the main LDS scholars that defends the BoA and was cited in the latest essay. Ritner takes personal disappointment that Gee has become a shill for the mormon party line, and I think that helps motivate him to stay engaged long past the point that he needs to.

Ritner published a book on the BoA that I recommend if you're interested in all the gritty details: http://www.amazon.com/The-Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri/dp/1560852321

The linked response essay contains the important points from the book, and is written as specific refutation to the church essay. It's succinct and devastating enough that it might be a good candidate for sharing with friends and family.

I actually happened to be in a position to visit the Kirtland Temple today (great tour by CoC volunteer -- not preachy or any awkward HeartSell attempts or commitment patterning.) There is a book/gift shop in the visitors center that I took a few minutes to browse around.

This book was for sale: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1560852321?ref=olp_product_details

I confirmed with a volunteer that CoC doesn't accept the Book of Abraham and was told that most visitors are LDS so they stock applicable books... but I'm guessing that book wouldn't be too popular with the typical Deseret Book customer. (They also had Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.)

Yes.

What is wrong with the “translation”?

1. https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/Research_Archives/Translation%20and%20Historicity%20of%20the%20Book%20of%20Abraham%20final-2.pdf
   
2. https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

The idea that the script is somehow an ancient temple ritual was proposed first by Nibley I believe. Here's the long and short of it:

1. Ritner (university of Chicago) has translated the scrolls. There is a book you can by for $20 or so which tells you exactly what is on the scrolls. It's worth buying if you have any question. Parts of his translation were plagiarized by the BYU folks trying to translate the scrolls and it appears that it upset him a bit, but I digress.
   
2. Timing: Abraham would have lived about 2200 BC. The scrolls date to about 150 BC. So Abraham never got near these scrolls. But what is more, the scrolls can and have been accurately translated. There's nothing on them that has anything to do with Abraham, which the church admits in their gospel topics essay on Abraham.
   
3. What is perhaps more problematic is that most scholars believe that Abraham never lived. He is a mythical historical figure.
   >By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible historical figures.
   source
   
   
4. Moreover, the whole idea that ancient biblical temple rights are in any meaningful way connected to modern LDS temple ceremonies is a stretch. The LDS temple rights mix the creation story (4-6th century BC?) with masonic ceremonies from the 19th century (the basis of masonry being developed no earlier than the 13th century). There was no temple worship in early Christianity, as even apologists will admit (I have references if needed).

Law of attraction isn't mormon doctrine, by the way. Some Mormons do add a bunch of junk woo on standard LDS beliefs though. I know people who use astrology, crystals, cupping, and a big trend is essential oils. It's not Mormonism though. Just a general non-skeptical credulity problem.

As far as getting your friend out of the TBM mindset, here's a few tips:

• beware the backfire effect. It's real and powerful. If you come at it directly, he will retrench and push you away.
  
  
• Create cognitive dissonance. Research issues of racism and homophobia in the church, show him you're a great person and be open and conversational about yourself. He will probably slip into a non-orthodox view and feel totally conflicted about his church just by having a good friend who happens to be gay and atheist. This is enough for a lot of people, without any additional prodding. They work through their cognitive dissonance by gently accepting and then embracing and defending their friends even when it means accepting the church is wrong here. And then it becomes acceptable to question the church, since if it is wrong here, why not on other issues as well? The domino effect.
  
  
• If he proselytes or invites you to Mormonism, use this opportunity to ask thoughtful questions. I wouldn't bring up the CES letter since that's too direct but I would respond to his invitations or conversations with relevant questions. Make sure it's not a dynamic where he's defending the church, but about his beliefs. So questions like, "I read there was a policy change in November 2015 that said children of gay parents would not be able to be baptized until they were 18 and disowned their gay parents' relationships. Do you feel comfortable with this policy?" Or, "I read that there's elements of pseudepigrapha from the Bible that were in the Book of Mormon, but those passages were misattributed to Isaiah and the actual authors lived later than Lehi's exodus from Jerusalem so there's no way Lehi would've had those writings. Were you taught about this anachronism?" It's tough, since to really get into the major issues you kind of have to know a ton about this obscure religion. That's why it's escaped major critical analysis by the big hitters outside the faith: it's just too small and obscure to have an outsider really strike down TBM testimonies.
  
  Best I've seen from an outsider is Philip Jenkins' takedown of the Book of Mormon as a historical record and Robert Ritner's book on the Joseph Smith Papyri (Book of Abraham).
  
  
• Retrenchment into Mormonism may be a sign he's struggling with some issue, not that he's super TBM. I've found some of the most "faithful" people in the church are struggling with their sexuality or with their beliefs or their ability to keep the rules so they feel guilty or broken. It's a last-ditch effort to make it work, and going on a mission is part of that. They're told that if they buckle down and give it 100%, God can change their nature. It doesn't work, and some people realize this before a mission but I think most realize it after. Your friend may be going through a hell that is so hidden from view that it's impossible to see. And he likely won't let anyone know. So I suggest treading carefully and with compassion. Part of it is you don't want anyone to know because you feel intense shame and inadequacy, and even acknowledging there's an issue is defeat. There's also the fear of death that is a huge thing.

Try getting him a copy of Robert K. Ritner's Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri, in which Ritner translates every extant fragment and the facsimiles of non-extant papyri. He even compares his own translation to previous efforts, to include Nibley's, and (get this) points out where fragments of papyrus were incorrectly pasted in (sometimes with incorrect orientations!) to fill in damaged spots.

I had a copy, but loaned it to a local TBM and haven't seen it since. I think they're holding it hostage so I have to go to another SM to get it back.

Try this book. It's much more current and scholarly. The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560852321/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_LtKDxbS6XFRGG

Not a rebuttal of Nibley's book, but covers pretty much everything you need to know. http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

A freebie from Ritner: http://signaturebooks.com/a-response-to-translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham-by-dr-robert-ritner/

Only way we could ever have incontrovertible proof is if we had Joseph Smith sign an affidavit not under duress that he made it up. We don't have that but we have a lot of evidence of fraud. My first shelf item was hearing that the Joseph Smith papyri that was used to write the Book of Abraham were discovered. I had no idea. I learned that they were translated as something very different. I decided to research the topic with an open mind from an academic unbiased POV. I used this book: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=joseph+smith+egyptian+papyri+ritner&qid=1555347679&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spell. I read the Church's current explanations on the topic. In the end, I couldn't arrive at any conclusion other than Joseph Smith made it up. Soon after I learned about the Kinderhook Plates. More proof that Joseph Smith could make up something. I learned about Joseph Smith admitting to using a seer stone to commit fraud by making people believe he could use the stone to find buried treasure. People would pay him to find treasure but he never did. He was convicted for that fraud. He used the exact same stone to dictate the BoM. There is proof that it was in Joseph Smith's character to commit fraud. There is proof that Joseph Smith willingly lied and got others to lie for him as leader of the Church (lots of this evidence). There is proof that his works (Book of Abraham and Kinderhook Plates) are fraudulent. There is a lot more also. PM me if interested and I will share some more of my notes. mormonthink.com is a great resource as well.

Maybe the author of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

Here's some Wiki about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Ritner

If I remember correctly Ritner had quite the back and forth on Patheos with a BYU professor or two.