Reddit Reddit reviews The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability

We found 65 Reddit comments about The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.

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65 Reddit comments about The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability:

u/Awale-Ismail · 19 pointsr/GenderCritical

>He keeps claiming that "there has been no better time for any human to be alive"

Completely wrong and modern brainwashing done well. Humans were better off as Hunter-Gatherers. Chronic diseases? Overwhelmingly unheard of. Mental health problems? Overwhelmingly unheard of. Physical fitness and proper bodily development? Impeccable. Leisure time? You'd be surprised. Social situation? None of the brutal and rigid social stratification that is so often ubiquitous among agriculturalist societies. Mostly all we have on these guys is modern medicine which grants us the ability to not die from simple infections or have to deal with infant mortality at an alarming rate.

This extends to women as well. Women were often better off when Humans were Hunter-Gatherers whereas they're almost always fucked over in agricultural societies; made to be submissive so they can keep being used as baby-making machines for the expansionist, world destroying way of life.

_________________

Also, to hell with your boyfriend, dear. He sounds like a tool. You can do better than him.

u/New_Ketone · 16 pointsr/TumblrInAction

Basically, I think this is about Deep Green REsistance. Edit: fixed the link, sorry 'bout that.

They are a hardline environmentalist group that believes in complete de-industrialization and the return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. They also believe that violence is an acceptable means to achieve this end. Lierre Keith, one of the group's founders, is a radical feminist who does not believe in transgenderism (which is where the "TERF" part comes from).

As for the "white veganism" part, it is not really accurate. DGR are actually critical of veganism (remember the hunter-gatherer part I told you about?). Keith authored a book called The Vegetarian Myth which, to her credit, I think actually had some interesting ideas.

u/purple_ink · 13 pointsr/Paleo

In my opinion, impossible. I'm taking advantage of a paleo lifestyle, but I don't think it's practical on a large-scale level. Like leevs11 said, the only reason there are 7 billion people is because of agriculture. While many were saved from starvation, the long-term outcome was more mouths to feed, and of course, starvation continues.

Lierre Keith is interesting talks specifically about this topic. You can download a speech by her here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?007hq967v7xy937
Her book:
http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

Also, read this article, written in 1987, describing agriculture as, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race":
http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

u/pumpkin-poodle · 12 pointsr/Paleo

You're not alone. Menstrual problems are extremely common in vegetarians, and so are mental health issues. There's plenty of stories similar to yours over at the WAPF, Let Them Eat Meat, and Beyond Vegetarianism. Personally, I gained a whopping 55lbs, developed B12 deficiency (despite taking 1000mcg of methylcobalamin per day), and ended up with a bunch of other nasty things. I'm proud to say that I've lost all of that weight plus seven pounds. (Who would've known a slice of bambi's mom could be so satisfying?)

So, a lot of people have clearly experienced health problems as a result of a vegn diet. Why does the ADA still insist that a "well-planned vegetarian diet" (a clear oxymoron) is healthy and even beneficial? [Seventh-Day Adventists and vegns have so much influence on the ADA to the point that it's rage-inducing.](http://letthemeatmeat.com/tagged/American-Dietetic-Association)

The Vegetarian Myth, The Mood Cure, The Meat Fix, The Ethical Butcher, The Whole Soy Story, and Defending Beef are all worth giving a read. Were you tested for B12, iron, zinc, Vitamin A, Vitamin D, magnesium, and/or iodine deficiency during your vegn years? If you quit recently, it's very likely that you're still deficient in some of these vitamins and will need to supplement for awhile. DHA and EPA are also very important due to how poorly ALA (such as that found in flaxseeds) converts to these essential nutrients.

I was vegan for nearly six years. No cheats. I always had my doubts about it, but getting to learn what other veg
ns look like was my last call. Just keep in mind that some lifelong meat-eaters will insist that a vegetarian diet is healthier. And some people are really mean.

u/Nantes22 · 12 pointsr/zerocarb

Your body will thank you. Raised vegan, sometimes saw my parents “lapse” into vegetarianism, went to mostly vegetarian as an adult but rebelled by trying inconsequential quantities of meat. I had a myriad of mystery health problems that I couldn’t understand and neither could my doctors; I’m early 30’s. It was a horrible journey, but I feel like a new person on carnivore/zero carb and I’m only three months into it. Also everything is starting to make sense which is glorious.

I’ll be honest with you, changes in weight or muscles are not as visually dramatic for me initially. If your experience is like mine, your body will spend a lot of time nourishing deprived joints, bones and muscles in the beginning, but you’ll feel more energy and stronger. I also experienced extreme oxalate dumping which was tough. I wrote some of my experience here (kind of went on a tangent, tbh!):
https://www.reddit.com/r/zerocarb/comments/df5qdp/optimizing_my_way_of_eating_for_further_health/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

If you have more questions, feel free to message me. I’m still learning about meat (I didn’t even know what each cut was or how to cook it) but I hope you enjoy that first steak as much as I did!!!

Oh I suggest some good reading for recovering vegetarians/vegans, message me if you’re interested in a book list but “vegetarian myth” by Lierre Keith is a good primer:
https://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=nodl_

u/petrus4 · 9 pointsr/IndianFood

I will probably get downvoted for this unfortunately, but:-

Minimise (don't completely eliminate, but restrict) rice and all other forms of carbohydrates, such as potatoes and primarily starchy vegetables. Conventional opinion assumes (as the people in this thread have) that weight gain is caused by animal fat in the diet, but said conventional opinion is wrong. The lipid hypothesis is BS. Carbohydrates are the real problem; they get converted to sugar, and then directly to body fat.

The Vegetarian Myth. The author of this is a prototypical cultural Marxist, but she provides the best debunking of the lipid hypothesis (why animal fat in the body is supposedly destructive) that I've ever encountered.

Wheat Belly. This is an accompanying book about why wheat and cereals, rather than milk and fats, are the real enemies of weight loss.

u/mmmberry · 8 pointsr/TwoXChromosomes

That book has been debunked by several credible people (dieticians, nutritionists, the scientific community, etc).

Long story short, there is no research and Keith just cites her favorite authors as proof (at one point she cites Wikipedia). The fact that she is so heavily supported by the Weston A. Price foundation (and cites their information as proof of her claims) is enough to question everything in the book. She uses one book by two physicans with no background in anthropology or evolution and puts forth their ideas about dietary evolution and presents it as incontrovertible evidence. No, it's not incontrovertible...having one source say something and then presenting it as incontrovertible (especially when the authors have no expertise in the area) is dishonest writing.

Please, do your own research or at least further investigate her sources and consider making an appointment with a dietitian.

Edit: Here are some reviews on Amazon which include some of the more egregious problems with the book. Obviously, take both those and the book with a grain of salt. But some of the problems with the book are so glaring that you can do your own research after reading reviews (where errors are pointed out).

u/ardent_stalinist · 7 pointsr/reddit.com

One thing I would add as the submitter: This blogger sounds as though she has read The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith, and while I don't fault her for that if so, I do think it would have been better had she been upfront about it.

u/lutusp · 6 pointsr/askscience

Here is a good summary of the issue: The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability

u/SergeiGolos · 5 pointsr/Fitness

Out of curiosity, the fact that you are vegan, is it a health life style choice, or are you not eating meat and animal products because of a moral objection?

If it is simply a health choice, i recommend reading the book Vegetarian Myth this might help. If it is a moral objection to eating meat, can't really help you, but solute your resolve.

Also, 40 min HIIT, either you are an animal or you are not giving the proper intensity. HIIT workouts shouldn't really last longer then 15 - 20 minutes. Tabata for example is ideal to only last 4 minutes.

Anyways best of luck to you.

Edit: spelling

u/MarcoVincenzo · 5 pointsr/Paleo

Go visit them before you eat them. See them being treated well and having good lives even though (because?) they're being raised to be our food. It's the cycle of life, they eat their food, we eat them--and, eventually we die and rot and become plant food and it starts all over again.

Edit: you might also want to take a look at Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability.

u/stringdom · 5 pointsr/askscience

It's the blog of the author, and that's the first chapter of his whole book where you can find references to further reading. The main issue is about the fundamental differences between animal fats and proteins versus vegetal fats and proteins and how they're metabolized in completely different ways by the body. This among hundreds of other bits of information, especially the critics upon ethical and social aspects of vegetarianism and ecological concerns like sustainability itself. Like I said in another comment, veganism is better than the average post-industrial world diet but is no better than a healthy omnivorous diet. Furthermore, vegan diet is extremely easy to mess up and end up hurting yourself and is mostly impossible to attain a perfect vegetarian diet without chemical supplements of nutrients.

EDIT: Further read: New York Times article can be backed up with this article.

Additional data

There's also the issue of what does a true vegetarian diet consist of. Eggs or milk count? yogurt? fish? bugs? Morally would you renounce to reading books, using plastics, wearing leather, and consuming certain medicines and other product produced out of farm animals? how does this would play out on an ideal Vegan world?

u/[deleted] · 5 pointsr/Paleo

The alternative- vegetarianism- isn't much better. There's this misconception that maybe if we just put some huge fence down the middle of the Serengeti and put the carnivores on one side and the herbivores on the other, everything will just work out great. Doesn't work that way.

Ditto with humans and their food choices. As Keith notes, not every bit of land is arable; in fact, relatively little of it is: too steep, too rocky, too hot, too cold, too wet, or too dry. What you can't grow crops on can be used for grazing, and then that meat can be eaten.

Chickens are an excellent example. The backyard chicken had multiple purposes on the farm- including keeping down the bugs. Today, "vegetarian feed" is boasted on the label of the eggs that I buy. Fuck that! I want a chicken that eats insects. Chickens will even eat vertebrates, given the opportunity- frogs, for example. I know that virtually every chicken raised in this country is fed soy; that's not sustainable- at all. But who's going to raise that many insects to feed hundreds of thousands of chickens at one single hatchery?

Ideally, you'd have two or three chickens around the yard, eating bugs and seeds, and you could harvest the eggs. But we don't do that, and instead we find it more convenient to spray for pests, making things worse.

Ultimately, the global population is just too high; that will probably correct itself soon in the form of drug-resistant bacteria, unfortunately. Probably somewhere around 100 million humans is where it should be.

u/cthulhucumsicle · 4 pointsr/themountaingoats

I'm a huge fan of JD; but this just doubles-down on my concern that he is ruining his health by being vegan.

Silly list of evidence;

Low energy - need to lean on things to stay up right.

Depressed - Lack of animal based nutrients and healthy fats impacts mental health. I note his older songs seemed to be dark, but on the average less morose. Saw a concert recently and have to admit that I was disappointed he played mostly "sad, relationship songs" and few of his more exciting songs. I really wanted to hear Autoclave and Michael Myers Resplendent but you can't please everyone I understand. Still - I left feeling really down in a way that I did not expect from listening to the albums.

His teeth are falling apart and he doesn't know why - this is often the warning sign that turns vegans into some version of paleo-type eaters. Happened to Robb Wolf, Lierre Kieth, and others.

When I see photos he just doesn't look well. This is what my vegan (not the fat ones that eat vegan junk food but the ones that actually eat vegetables) friends look like - thin but without that warmth in their skin, lines, wrinkles, etc.

u/not_entertained · 3 pointsr/loseit

You can always comment stalk him in the meantime ;) http://www.reddit.com/user/fatmalcontent - I think most of what you need to know is already there in his comment history.

About returning to my omnivorous ways: this was not an easy or quick decision, I had been thinking about this for at least a year now. I had ben a vegetarian for 15 years, it was a big part of who I was and I did not want to give it up. One problem were my iron levels (I'm female, from what I've heard males tend to have less problems with iron) that I barely managed to keep at a good level by using supplements. But since iron supplements tend to cause a permanent state of constipation that was just a temporary workaround but not a solution. But this was only what started to get me thinking, not the only problem, otherwise I would have done this years ago. Even with good iron levels I was still tired and pale. The fact that I was using a lot of carb heavy stuff (lots of grains and legumes) to make up for meat was not helping either. After noticing a couple of problems with supplements I started to be very suspicious about them, wondering how many other side effects they had that I did not even notice yet. So I decided that I did not want to keep taking various daily supplements, wanted to get most of the stuff mainly from my diet and started to have a detailed look at my vitamin and mineral intake (I use a software called "cronometer" for this; screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/YWUCk/cronometer_screenshots_2). I noticed after a while that I wasn't meeting many of my nutritional goals (mainly B vitamins and of course also iron) even though I was trying my best to do so.

Based on that I started to question my belief that being a vegetarian is a perfectly natural and healthy way for humans to live. I had always used the typical "no short intestine, no claws,.." arguments to defend my position. I did not want to see that you could also turn these around just as well (we don't have the long intestines of plant eaters either, but we lie somewhere in between which would make us an omnivore if you take this as a sign; we don't have claws and sharp teeth but an essential part of us being human has always been tool making so there was no need to keep wasting energy on building them).

Have you heard about the Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith? From the reviews I've seen that it is a bit controversial (veganism and vegetarianism tend to be very emotional subjects and I definitely understand why that is) but I've talked to quite a lot of people who found it very interesting and who stopped being a vegan or a vegetarian afterwards. To be honest I haven't read it since my decision was already made before I stumbled across it but if I decided to stay vegetarian I would have read it. I think it's always better to be able to consider aspects that one didn't know about before and then decide whether one wants to take them into consideration or not.

You might also have heard about the voraciouseats girl who stopped being a vegan: http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/ she also links to a couple of other blogs of former vegans who made the same decision. In case you are interested in health related concerns I would at least have a look at these.

My personal compromise is that I am now even stricter when eating at a restaurant or party than I used to be (which is also a result of cutting out all grains). I still don't eat meat and most of the time I just have a salad, sometimes just water if I don't feel like eating (which is a completely new experience for me...). When I'm at home I cook meat for me but only when I know it has been grass fed and raised in the best way possible which I think is best for me but also the comparably best thing for the animal. There are a couple of local farmers who stopped producing milk and who instead let their cows live together with a bull on the pasture. Their calves are slaughtered at the farm and only afterward transported to a factory for processing. I also know where my eggs come from and I don't consume any dairy. This is of course more expensive but it's not like I eat nothing but meat now, it is just a small part of my diet. And I also eat much less than I did before. Upping fat & protein and cutting out anything that causes cravings (for me that unfortunately currently also includes fruits and nut butter) has helped me a lot already and so I need smaller amounts of food now. Sorry for the long comment. I've thought about this a lot and thus obviously like talking about it....

---
Edit: there was one thing that I forgot to mention. I've read this so many times and I remember when I first heard it: around 10 years ago when my doctor had checked my iron levels for the first time he looked me in the eyes and said "not everyone of us is born to be a vegetarian, you know". I did of course ignore him back then and only now remembered this. Not everyone might have the same problems when being vegan or vegetarian and as far as I know we have absolutely no idea why that is the case. So if being vegan works for you, you feel and look "alive" and if there is nothing that is missing or wrong with you then of course do whatever you believe is right. The question might however be how many people are indeed not having any problems and how many just ignore them. I always thought that I was "just pale" and that was just the way I am. Thinking about it, I have lots of pale, thin vegan friends who don't look very good but who are probably in denial just as I was. I do in fact not have a single vegan friend that looks really healthy but at least from what I've read online they might be out there.

u/RightfullySqualid · 3 pointsr/AntiVegan

On youtube, Cultivate Health and Beauty. It's targeted towards women and their channel is not about being anti-vegan, but they are pretty anti-vegan. Also Primal Edge Health. I watch Sv3ridge for the exvegan videos and the Epitomy of Malnourishment videos but be careful in venturing to anything outside of that. For podcasts, listen to Bulletproof Radio, Fitness Confidential, The Paleo Solution, Primal Blueprint Podcast. For books, The Vegetarian Myth and the works of Weston A. Price. Look for people with an internet presence who are paleo. Most a very educated about veganism. Nina Teicholz work is worth mentioning too. She did a great breakdown of all the problems with that piece of propaganda "documentary" What the Health.

u/ranprieur · 3 pointsr/AskReddit

Your wife has done research slanted toward what she already believes. Check out these books:

The Vegetarian Myth

Nourishing Traditions

u/Xab · 3 pointsr/askscience

There are several reasons that many of us in the strength and conditioning field outright avoid all grains.

The primary concern with grains is the presence of lectins, which are proteins that are only present in grains and have unusual qualities. Normally, when you ingest proteins from a meat source, the enzymes in your stomach cleave apart the peptide bonds that hold the proteins together, and you then easily absorb chains of 3 to 10 aminos, which are used throughout the body. Lectins, however, are of a design such that they aren't readily digested and are absorbed in their full state. Now, here's where the science gets somewhat cutting edge, but from what I've read, here's what happens: Once floating around in the blood, the body has a hard time recognizing them for whatever reason. They then readily bind to all sorts of tissue, inhibiting cellular turnover, most especially in the intestines (keep in mind that the intestinal lining replaces itself very rapidly). Plus, while only about 1% of the US population has Coeliac's disease (a genetic disorder which produces a marked autoimmune response in the gut leading to pain and GI issues due to a sensitivity to wheat and other grains), there's evidence to suggest that a majority of people in the US have minor autoimmune reactions to wheat and other grains. Constant autoimmune reactions to what is supposedly the basis of our diet is certainly not conductive to good health, and after all, lectins are classified as an anti-nutrient.

Another aspect is that, to me at least, it's a junk carbohydrate. It provides almost nothing other than carbohydrates. The fiber in wheat isn't nearly as high-quality as the fiber in actual vegetables, and I believe the FDA is even moving to classify grain fibers differently than vegetable fibers for that very reason. Other carbs like sweet potatoes and white rice are much more superior, in my opinion. For those that just can't get away from bread though, there is an option called Ezekial bread, which is sprouted grain bread. Sprouting doesn't get rid of all the anti-nutrients, but it does eliminate many of them.

Last of all, the evolution argument is one I find interesting but one that is difficult to consider anything more than psuedo-science without more hard data. In short, agriculture has only existed for roughly 10,000 years. Humans have existed for around 200,000 years, and during that time, they thrived on a diet of meats and vegetables. Even before that, pre-human ancestors maintained a similar diet as well. While anthropologists do note that life expectancy increased with agriculture, general wellness decreased pretty drastically using a measure of pelvic depth and height of the human. Between humans that were hunter-gatherers and humans that were farmers that lived at the same time, the hunter-gatherers were on average taller, had greater pelvic depth, and lower body fat. Agrarian cultures saw a drastic reduction in quality of life based on those biological markers.

If I may suggest, there is an incredible book that talks at length on this subject called The Vegetarian Myth. I don't think I could do the author's work justice by trying to repeat it, but she's certainly done her legwork on the topic.

u/herman_gill · 3 pointsr/loseit

Krill, Shrimp, and Sardines are each one of the largest biomasses on the planet. They're actually more sustainable than most plant and vegetation which we have to actually actively grow to get enough of. Those farming practices actually help destroy the planet even worse than krill, shrimp, and sardine fishing do. This is because these three species are pretty much as the bottom of the food chain in the ocean. We couldn't actually wipe out any three of these populations from fishing practices if we actively tried to.

The same isn't true of salmon though, which is why it's often farmed (or because it's difficult to catch large amounts of in places like Alaska where there is still an abundance of it).

Have you ever heard of this book?

u/hexapus · 3 pointsr/Paleo

Reminds me of some of the material in this book

u/squintinginthelight · 3 pointsr/unpopularopinion

Absolutely, supporting farms who treat their animals well is an active vote against meat from a factory farm. Money talks.


Agriculture is also hugely deadly to animals and bad for the environment. There's a whole book about this written by a woman who was vegan for 20 years. The Vegetarian Myth

u/adarkmethodicrash · 3 pointsr/zerocarb

https://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

It's written by a former avid Vegan, and covers what she's learned about how Vegtarianism/Veganism affects health, the environment, and animal rights. It's not a hard scientific study, but covers a wide range of topics to enough of a degree to possibly reshape your thinking. I suggest reading it as a overview, and then start digging into select areas that concern you more deeply.

She didn't go ZC, but instead is omnivore with a focus on fresh unprocessed food.

u/SincerelyNow · 2 pointsr/todayilearned

The Vegetarian Myth

Well, the idea is that if the whole world went vegan, or even vegetarian, that it would be even more unhealthy for the earth than the mixed diet we eat now.

The basic premise is that crop production of that kind, enough to feed a fully vegetarian human population worldwide, would actually destroy much more land than we already do now. Many of the world's great deserts have grown because of farming practices that denuded the land and sped desertification.

There are also smaller ideas like the fact that we'd probably just lose many species that we've domesticated. The cow, the chicken, etc. would go extinct within a few generations in the wild with no human intervention.

The real problem is human population. If the world's population was much, much smaller, we could all live like North Americans and West Europeans. That's unlikely to happen voluntarily.

The ideal solution if we aren't going to reduce human population is to start transitioning back towards a hunting/gathering model -- but combined with small acreage/high yield organic farming techniques that have been mastered over the last century. There's a "farm" in Los Angeles that is just the back and front yard of an average LA one story ranch house. It has broken world records of yield/Sq Ft using organic permaculture principles. It can produce hundreds and hundreds of pounds of produce every year using these principles, all organic, all sustainable using output from plants synergistically to reduce and eliminate inputs needed for the system. There's about 7 people in the house who tend it full time.

Now imagine if every neighborhood had one or two of these houses?

The industrial farming system is unnecessary and a crime against the earth. Whether produce or animal. They all need to go, we can do far better.

u/misunderstandingly · 2 pointsr/Paleo

Find farms that are local to you. I buy grass fed beef direct from the farmer. (I even get to pet my dinner during their happy, but short lives on the farm.) It's like $5 a lb, but I have to buy in bulk.

The same farmer though also sells individual chickens. They are TRUE free range. Not like CAFO chickens - these birds literally could leave if they wanted too. There is no fence or gate preventing them from just heading out and walking down the road. The meat is incredibly dense and the birds are huge. I am a big eater and single breast is more than a meal for me; while I could pretty much eat an entire Publix chicken on my own.

Also - buy a slow cooker and find a source for quality meats in the cheaper cuts, like a roast.

You may like to read this book; The Vegetarian Myth. The title is a bit confrontational but most of the book is about the author reexamining her relationship with food and the earth. I am not a "spiritual person" but I found it quite moving and it really changed who I think about my food. The first chapter was free on her website - google it.

TL:DR: You can afford good meat; you need to buy it from a farmer not from Whole Foods.

u/nunb · 2 pointsr/worldnews

>Why we shouldn't complain that meat eaters use 10 times the land resources.

Red herring alert.

I believe that agriculture uses more land, and is more ruinous to the environment than pastoralism[1]. Animals can be grown on marginal land, which incidentally is all that is left after agriculture's done with it. Just because your food does not bleed does not mean it is more moral. Forests were destroyed and animals displaced/killed to create your fields. Look at a historical map of Europe and see the historical extent of forest that was destroyed.

Fuel and nitrogen fertilizer are used, pesticides that poison the food chain, agricultural machinery that destroys topsoil, irrigation systems that lower the water-table. Unfortunately agriculture as without pesticides will simply not sustain the current population level (not that I think it's a bad thing). I have great hopes for things like micro-ponics though, small self-sustainable systems, but again, it will not support anywhere near the current level of population unless we, say, farm the seas or something. And that hasn't really turned out well at all, has it?

>Living things that feel pain, can be mutilated, maimed, abused, tortured. Then consider how carefully we construct and pack iPods, computers, TVs, and cellphones that nobody needs and will discard in a year or two. Then tell me why vegans and vegetarians should shut up[3].

While I sympathize that it is a painful issue (I once threw the picnic lunch for 7 people into a river because someone shot a pigeon) as evidenced by the apparent non-sequitur in this quote, I agree that animals should not be "treated like crap".

I completely agree about humane, ethical and conservational. You know what's interesting? Where animals can be freely hunted in the wild (USA) is where they're preserved in the wild in their greatest number. That is conservation. Why have leopards and lions disappeared from all over Europe and up to Iran? Why are there pumas in North America, but virtually none in Argentina (except for a small range in the south?).

Get a government to mandate that animals be protected and not hunted, and people will displace animals from their native habitat. The evidence is there all around the world. Regulated hunting keeps habitats and animals alive. Photo safaris do more to damage the African bush than hunting safaris. Hunting safaris save the future of African wildlife and have almost zero impact on the environment compared to hordes of tourists in their safari jeeps. The animals that are killed in a hunting safari are those that would naturally die in the near-term. Nobody hunts a 1 year old male lion. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is true. It seems paradoxical, but remember the anteater is not the friend of the ant, but of the antheap. Where hunting is perversely not allowed the Forest Service must cull animal numbers (eg, elephant herds in South Africa).

>Consider, for a moment, that those animals are living things. Living things that feel pain, can be mutilated, maimed, abused, tortured.

It often seems to me that vegans have not thought their policies out to the very end (I am not accusing you of this since you said you will accept eating meat, grudgingly).

What happens to the animals we don't eat? What happens to wild animals? Either they get old and die, or more likely they get eaten in the wild. Watch a wildebeest being killed by lions, not a pretty sight. If they get old and die without predation, they will desertify their environment. If they are wild animals, human pressure will push them out of their habitat.

The role of Man at the apex of the predatory chain means that if animals do not serve our purposes they will die. All that you are recommending is that the only purpose they serve for us is a sense of wonderment that they exist, a benign pleasure on our part at watching them. And we should protect them for this. I am not opposed, I fully support natural parks, wildlife and habitat preservation etcetera. Unfortunately it doesn't work. Consider the huge stock of domestic/agricultural animals: Who would keep and feed cows and chickens if they were not eaten? [2] The same thing would happen to them that happens to stray dogs: they would have to be put down. Or allowed to live out their lives on land, and be made not to reproduce (if they did reproduce, under human protection, they would displace wildlife).

In sum, the only logical ending to "stop their suffering" is to make a species extinct. If animals do not serve us, we will destroy them (I don't mean personally, I mean as a species. Nothing you can do will change this, no legislation, no government policy) or displace them. It's not just us in the West, it's the 4 billion people in the rest of the world (who incidentally, do not have time for such moral hair-splitting).

Also, I am not making the argument that because lions kill animals it is moral for us to do so as well. I merely posit that everything is part of our economic system and must find a role in it. It seems that for you, animals should fulfil that role merely by being cute, watchable things that it makes us happy to protect for their own sake. That they should eat and live for no other reason. While I am not opposed in principle, in practice I do not think it will work. It may work for us here in the western world, but certainly not in the rest, and certainly not for long, only while we have disposable income to use for this purpose.

>By sticking your fingers in your ears every time a vegn complains, you're just ignoring the evidence in front of you.

I don't do this at all. Where what they are saying goes against my libertarian philosophy I merely point that out. Fascism is still fascism, even when done with the best of intentions. What evidence do you mean, specifically?

>Perhaps you don't care about the rights of the animals, the environment, or the future of this planet; but don't bitch about the people that do.

I actually care
a lot about the environment and the future. If it weren't for agriculture I do not believe humans would have put the pressure on the environment they do today.

If you care too, and have an open mind, may I recommend this?

Also you also say animals have rights. Here I must completely disagree with you. Rights come with responsibilities, and are an exclusively moral and human construct. An animal
cannot have rights, it can only have a human champion* who demands certain privileges be accorded it. You are that champion in an all-encompassing way. I am merely more limited in the privileges that I demand be accorded to animals, a "limited-rights for animals" campaigner, if you wish. Do you understand the distinction I am trying to make here? It is not a distinction without a difference. You could loosely use the word "right" for privilege, or if privilege sounds condescending think "we owe them humanity", or "we owe them a duty".

A common problem I have with PETA-sympathizers (and I was one myself, once) is they fail this test: "A puppy dog and a homeless, snotty beggar-child are both about to be run down by a car. The puppy is yours, the child is (say) an abandoned, dirty thing. If you could save just one, which would it be?" I used to think they were morally equivalent. Now I do not.

Interestingly PETA believes animals should not be "pets". How many dogs does Ingrid Newkirk have? Saying they're not pets is like saying Catholic priests did not molest children, they just educated them in the ways of the world. Do you know how many animals PETA puts down every year? In a world without human champions (dog-owners) dogs would die out, or become feral and ultimately wolves. Whereupon their habitat would get destroyed over time, as has happened all over the world, or they would end up living with us, in which case how is the situation any different?

Please note: I bring up PETA only because on many of these issues people who feel the way you do (and as I once did) agree with them. And their example shows the logical outcome of such a philosophy.

Well, this has become too long already. You can PM me if you wish, but I don't think I'll be following through in this discussion.

Cheers.


[1] (there's plenty of evidence, but rather than debate the evidence, which I've no time for, I'll just say it's a belief. Google is your friend)
[2] (If they were not eaten but we use their milk and eggs, how is that more moral? Eating fetuses and depriving calves of mother's milk? In this at least I understand the vegans, they have a principled approach.)
[3] I don't want to be rude, but humans are naturally predatory and meat eating. Evolution supports this hypothesis (google Efficient Tissue hypothesis) and so do morphological and behavioral differences between humans and primate relatives, not to mention the archaeological record. I can accept the argument that "I have become morally enlightened enough to go past that" though, and to that extent I am fine with vegans, of which there are a few in my immediate family. Also, as far as "what to eat" is concerned, I am ok with locally grown, sustainable vegetable farming. I do believe that humans (again, biologically speaking) are not meant to eat grasses since we are not ruminants, that large scale agriculture will destroy (and has destroyed in the past) soil-health through desertification (Nile valley comes to mind, and all of the Euphrates).

u/Pander · 2 pointsr/vegetarian

Read The Vegetarian Myth. Make sure that you are doing this for the right reasons.

Anemia and vegetarianism don't mix very well. You will want to see a doctor/nutritionist so you know exactly what you need to be eating. It might feel more moral, but being a veggie is more work to make sure you eat right and more odds of things going terribly wrong with anemia. This is doubly so since you say that you aren't going to have people supportive of your choice who you still have to feed. If you can't afford to eat so that it won't kill you, don't do it.

I had a friend in high school who almost killed herself being a veggie because she's anemic. It wasn't until she had the chance to be out of her house and got some extra income to be able to eat so it wouldn't kill her.

tl;dr: Anemia and vegetarianism don't mix very well, see a doctor instead of asking the internets.

u/pumpalumpagain · 2 pointsr/keto

Give Good Calories Bad Calories a read first. Then try reading The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. She was a vegan for 20 years and it caused her some major health issues. She really points out the fallacies that the vegetarian lifestyle is based on very clearly. In the mean time you can watch all the videos found here, and this post from March 14 by Taubes is great, pay special attention to the second paragraph. Does she want you to watch Forks Over Knives? That movie fails entirely to address the weaknesses inherent in observational studies.

u/BearfootXmormon · 2 pointsr/vegan

You should, it really showed me just what grains to the earth and where Veganism can ultimately lead to. Here's the link on Amazon

u/HenkPoley · 2 pointsr/Health

Vitamin D with calcium, cuts the overall general cancer risk between the lowest and highest quartile of people measured by about 75%. And cuts the overall general cancer metastasis risk by about 50%. See: http://www.ajcn.org/content/85/6/1586.short

Proper supplementation is around the 75 IU D3 per kg bodyweight per day mark. But actually you have to measure your 25(OH)D3 bloodlevels to be sure, is has to end up between 100-150 nmol/L (40-60ng/mL).

Vegetarians being healthy is myth, though in general they have to be more obsessed with foods so they tend to know how to balance it with special healthy supplemental foods that are not as well known by the general populace.

For bone health you may want to look into vitamin K (K1, K2:{Mk4, Mk7}) and other vitamin D cofactors.

u/porcuswallabee · 2 pointsr/Paleo

Isn't The Vegetarian Myth horribly sourced and full of bad science (example: author states there are no bacteria in the human stomach pg.142)? According to the top review on Amazon (follow that link):

The author cites 207 references in this book.

62 of those references are websites (~30%)

18 are newspapers and magazines (~7%)

32 are journals (~15%)

95 are other books (~46%)

u/masturbatin_ninja · 2 pointsr/news

Mostly it's just general knowledge from various history courses as well as reading on Paleo, Keto and Traditional diet topics. The problem with living in the wild and eating only plants and fruits is that they are pretty low calorie. People tended to use up more energy looking for those foods than they would gain from eating them. Another problem is that before agriculture plants were way less productive. Here is a comparison of ancient vs more modern corn. Another problem is that you can't find wild strawberries in the middle of winter. Plant based food was much more reliant on seasonality and went bad very quickly. Meat on the other hand has tons of nutrients and can be dried or smoked and kept for the winter.


Nutrition Density Challenge: 5 lbs of Fruit vs. 4 oz Beef Liver

Here is the chart, the liver is on the bottom. http://imgur.com/k84944M


You might enjoy this book. The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability. PB has a torrent of it.

u/seanthenry · 1 pointr/Bitcoin

http://www.bonappetit.com/story/oldest-person-in-world-food

It looks like all the people on the list eat meat.

Check out Lierre Keith The Vegetarian Myth. She talks about the issues of being a vegetarian longterm and the issues/medical problems that it can create due to imbalances created by a diet deficient in different nutrients and fats.

u/sylvan · 1 pointr/Fitness

>Bill Walton ended his all-star career NBA by insisting on being vegan. He has since acknowledged it as something that ruined his health.

"Walton injured himself again the following season, but returned for the 1987 playoffs. He spent the 1987-88 season on the injured list. He attempted a comeback in February 1990, but injury intervened and he retired from the game. His ankle problems became so severe years later that he had both his ankles surgically fused. His saga of injury and failed rehabs was connected to the use of pain killers by the doctor who was assigned to his case.[citation needed] Walton has said repeatedly in his broadcasts that he is just as much to blame for taking the medication as the doctor was for giving it to him. Yet his experience with injuries and the circumstances surrounding them have come to serve as a warning for professional athletes who undergo major injury, as well as being an interesting case study for medical ethics." >

Veganism causes ankle injuries?

>Carl Lewis was juicing according to a few sources. He was the USOC's golden child.

Aren't we cynical.

>Brazier has won more marketing awards than triathlons.

http://www.brendanbrazier.com/raceresults/index.html

>Lierre Keith also just wrote a book about her turn from Veganism. http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

This is an anti-civilization screed that is also based on straw-man arguments.
http://vegansofcolor.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/vegetarian-myth-lierre-keith/

The meat industry drives the bulk of crop production and deforestation. What Keith wants would sentence billions to starvation, since we can't feed 6 billion people on subsistence hunting & gathering.




u/charlatan · 1 pointr/Economics

herezeez:
http://www.thegreatcholesterolcon.com/The_China_Study.html

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255048634&sr=8-1

I also agree veggies are the shizz, but not soy and all the imitation products vegans sub in for the food they used to eat. Fermented and sprouted foods generally have a better nutrition profile. Phytic acid and lectins are also things to watch out for.

u/xPersistentx · 1 pointr/loseit
u/LudicrousGibs · 1 pointr/todayilearned

http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

It's a free audiobook if you sign up for a trial subscription to Audible.

I'm not your mate, mate.

u/Muska1986 · 1 pointr/Vegetarianism

Sure, thanks for asking :) you were the first who provided a valid point on the vegan side for the whole B12 deal. I've read this as well, that we live "too clean" nowadays, reducing the chance to get B12 on many levels. However if animal products, amongst other nutrients, contain decent amounts of B12 in it's natural form (meaning no pill needed to be manufactured, packaged, and delivered to your local supplement store), there are only more questions raised.

My statement is based on experience (I've been trying out different diets / lifestyles for 16+ years now), and on the following:

Here's an interesting link first: https://www.nps.gov/rowi/learn/news/the-tree-root-that-ate-roger-williams.htm

The apple tree, after a long time, consumed - "ate" - Mr. Williams' body. Basically, used his nutrients. That's what all in our world does, regardless of life type; Bacteria, insects, animals, plants, all eat, for nutrition, and try to reproduce as much and as fast as they can. All life forms are set up to consume a certain amount of nutrients, from certain sources. That's a fact, regardless of how we feel about it.

Throughout history our bodies got used to animal consumption 100% - fats, proteins, all of it, nothing is left out, compared to vegetables' cellulose. There's nothing our body leaves out undigested.

It also got used to eating nuts, and random amounts of fruits, and vegetables (being season-dependent of course). This whole concept changed about 10-15.000 years ago with agriculture. To this day, archeologists can show differences of bone density, and general health differences between old societies that stayed hunter-gatherers, and those that switched to grains / rice / maize crops. Here's what I found: https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2009/04/22/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/

So as per this link, as soon as agriculture became more and more popular, our health got involved, in many aspects.

Now, I'm not convinced of course that regular activity cannot better the state of bone density for instance. Vegan crossfitters are great example of extra healthy, vegetable-based diets with great outcomes.

Getting back to the subject - connection between B12 and veganism being unhealthy, my base thought was inspired by this book: https://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

I'm not judging anybody, on the contrary, I think it's very noble to decide you don't want to partake in the living hell we call the meat industry today. I'm questioning the natural aspect of it. My goal, in my life, is to be as natural, and as close to my general requirements as possible. I eat local, and mostly bio products. But that's me.

There are various, other great effects of becoming vegan. But is it really healthy? Is it sustainable? Is it really a "natural form of living", when even on the basic nutrients, like iron, and vitamin B12 one would need to get supplements? Iron of course is easier to come by - spinach, broccoli, and other greenies are full if them. Beans too! But my basic argument is that all living beings should find their natural equilibrium in our world's system. We also are consumed by mother nature, we also should follow the course on which we are set. Let me know what you think.

What is the B12 supplement made of btw? Is it from the bacteria found in dirt? Isn't that also a type of living being then? So how is that different from eating a mackerel that you cought 20km from your city's shore? (Cought, not farmed) = I think it can be ethical to eat seafood.

u/BlueberryRush · 1 pointr/simpleliving

There's lots of proof.

Also a great book.

But if you really want to learn about food, you have to go to the source in my opinion.

u/arnott · 1 pointr/AmItheAsshole

Her main point is to eat local food and not do factory farming which is cruel to animals and bad for the environment.

That said, its a very controversial book. Check out this review.

Today's factory farming depends on artificial fertilizers which need fossil fuels to be produced. The author also points out the person (Fritz Haber) who invented the Haber process to produce Ammonia, was involved in chemical warfare in WWI. She also mentions this as a connection between agriculture and war. You need to read the book, Amazon's preview can be useful to get an idea too.

Also, she refers to Limberlost Swamp, a 13,000 acres swamp, which was destroyed.

>European Americans drained the Limberlost for agricultural development early in the 20th century, destroying the rich habitat.

u/Dokterrock · 1 pointr/AskReddit

There is an author by the name of Lierre Keith who makes a good argument about how veganism isn't environmentally sustainable nor the healthiest diet around.

However, I would be willing to bet you that being vegan is a lot healthier than the soda and fast-food diet of most Americans. If you do it right, it can be pretty fucking good for you.

u/Skepticalj · 1 pointr/AskReddit

A pig is more intelligent than a dog... they can feel pain, affection, mourn the loss of loved ones, and can be trained to perform specialized tasks.

Corn, not so much.

In terms of a healthy diet though, veganism and vegetarianism are total crap. For more on morality, I would suggest this, although some of the sources are very weak for the nutritional components, so refer to this.

u/MrEmeralddragon · 1 pointr/ireland

The diet can impact bone density as well as causing or exasperating hypothyroidism to the point where your thyroid all but stops functioning. The amount of them with vitamin and mineral deficiencies is insane as well. Almost all of them are lacking in many vitamins and minerals due to a severe lack of fat intake which allows for mineral absorption. Your teeth get seriously fucked up and your joints get eroded as well.

Heres a good read on it - The Vegetarian Myth

Heres an interview with the author - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFm2QLLuh6I

u/alexgodden · 1 pointr/relationships

The book The Vegetarian Myth is a good source if you are interested. It is very strongly on the other side of the argument, but seeing as 90% of the mainstream media pushes the "vegetarian/vegan is healthy and ethical" line it's refreshing to read some of the opposing arguments.

u/faintpremonition · 1 pointr/IAmA

>It is 2019 & high dietary cholesterol is linked to heart disease. And heart disease is the leading cause of death, it is caused by cholesterol and saturated fats.

This is completely bogus. This is like claiming that firemen are the leading cause of fires. Your body can regulate its production of cholesterol to respond to your dietary intake without any significant difficulty. Your whole premise is flawed: the assumption that cholesterol is a problem the body needs to solve.

You should read this book that covers the flaws in the studies regarding dietary fat, cholesterol and heart disease and how they are corrupted by agricultural lobbying in the US Congress. If you are broke I'll be happy to buy the e-book for you. Keith covers quite a bit more than just that, I'd skip ahead to the relevant section on heart disease studies and the issues with the reported "increases" of the rate of death by heart diseases, although the entire book is interesting.

u/s10laidout · 1 pointr/LouderWithCrowder
u/hightiedye · 1 pointr/worldnews

>Did the control group partake it in a high fat, no carb diet? You cannot make a blanket statement because one study, in strict conditions, proved your argument.

Please google "the china study" aka "The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted And the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, And Long-term Health"

lol at "because one study, in strict conditions".

>animal proteins

What so special about those? 10th essential amino acid only found in meat? Comes with a side of cholesterol?

>high fat, no carb diet

This isn't really relevant? We talking animals and plants here... not macros

>Why don't you start a campaign to stop all the animal predators in the world from eating their pray? Can't they just survive with a veggie diet?

Your second fallacy of the day. What are you trying to argue here? Because cats can't produce taurine I, a conscious taurine producing human, get to do whatever damned the consequences?

>If you want to inform yourself, try reading http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804.

After reading the comments looks like it works well with your "everything is harmful to a degree so let's not try" reasoning from before.

>Basically it argues that you cannot have 100% vegetarians in the world, from a sustainability point of view.

Even if we pretend that's true, it's basic logic that a 100% vegetarian world would more sustainable then one not. The animals need to consume the plants otherwise being consumed. Again with the not 100%, screw it?

u/LoveJustHate · 1 pointr/worldnews

> Where? Link?
https://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/sources/agriculture.html

They are not doing the most damage.

> Ok? You will be more healthy and live longer if you don't eat animals. Source: the china study.

Did the control group partake it in a high fat, no carb diet? You cannot make a blanket statement because one study, in strict conditions, proved your argument.

> It's not. Immoral, unethical, destructive behaviors are deserving of attack.

Matters on your philosophy which I believe to be totally flawed. Why don't you start a campaign to stop all the animal predators in the world from eating their pray? Can't they just survive with a veggie diet?

Also, I personally eat meat because of the animal proteins, and especially high quality fats, are essential to my diet.

If you want to inform yourself, try reading http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804.

Basically it argues that you cannot have 100% vegetarians in the world, from a sustainability point of view.

u/FatState · 1 pointr/keto
u/skylercollins · 0 pointsr/gatekeeping

Isn't it true that if everyone went vegan, more of the environment would have to be converted to agriculture?

I haven't read it yet, but I believe that's a big part of this book: The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability https://www.amazon.com/dp/1604860804/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_6y2JDbNDRNWAA

Discussion with the author I heard: [Tangentially Speaking with Christopher Ryan] 391 - Lierre Kieth (The Vegetarian Myth) #tangentiallySpeakingWithChristopherRyan
http://podplayer.net/?id=79760768 via @PodcastAddict

u/NowNowMyGoodMan · 0 pointsr/keto

Maybe the book 'The Vegetarian Myth' by Lierre Kieth could help ease your conscience. She was also a vegan for something like 15 or 20 years and had to stop because of health problems (and changing beliefs) just like you.

I've only read the introduction and the first of three parts but I really enjoyed what I read. The book is about why veganism might not be as good as people might think from a ethical, environmental and health-perspective. The title may sound a bit harsh but the book itself isn't. She also makes it clear in the introduction that it shouldn't be seen as an excuse for factory farming or cruelty towards animals.

u/MrOrsom · 0 pointsr/MensLib

From what I've read, the idea of meat-eating being bad for the environment comes from the mass factory farming of animals, and the mass agriculture in terms of corn and other foods types required to support that industry. The predominance of mono-crops in modern agriculture (that is, using a piece of land to grow one thing and one thing only) results both in a reduction of biodiversity in the land, and ultimately to that land no longer being able to sustain agriculture. This is being seen across the world. That reduction in biodiversity is, in real terms, the removal of multiple types of life from our planet - bacteria, small animals, and plants.

Most animals reared for food can grow very happily on grassland, eating what nature provides. They are then part of the local ecosystem, eating the grass, pooping it out, and not impacting on the wider world.

Also from figures I've seen, in terms of food production, the density of quality calories produced per acre from rearing animals in this way, far surpasses anything agriculture can offer.

Now whether this kind of farming could be replicated across the planet to feed the whole world, I'm not so sure. In fact I'm doubtful. But as it's available to me in my wealthy western country, I'm happy to keep supporting it, in the belief that it's actually impacting less on the world, and is magnitudes less cruel to the animals and other impacted creatures.

In terms of references, I'd have to take the easy route and point you at a book - The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. She is a radical feminist who saw meat-eating as part of the masculine raping of our planet, but changed her view after trying to start a small-holding herself.

u/HeyHeather · 0 pointsr/Paleo

http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o

Factory farming is bad for the environment, but clearing out millions of acres of biological diversity and ecosystems to grow corn, wheat, and soy covered in Ammonium Nitrate is FAR worse.

u/osjp · -1 pointsr/DoesAnybodyElse

> What, if anything, can I do to bridge the disconnect between thought and action?

Answer: Get your facts straight.

Introductory reading:

u/BegorraOfTheCross · -1 pointsr/vegan

The vegetarian myth appears to have been written by someone who was foo-foo-veggie & believed that she didn't need b12. So after rotting her spine out decided to be equally foo-foo-retarded in the opposite direction and say vegetarianism is deadly because she is retarded. Tell your sister if she really cares about the animals she better stop being retarded because she's going to do some dumbass thing like that author and then demand people murder animals to atone for her idiocy.


I think that book was actually one of the early lead-ins to paleo getting popular, so the threat level is real. Retard = animal murderer emperess.

EDIT:

Who/why downvote???? It should be clear this was humor, I don't mean literally tell her she's retarded, but that 'murica loves nothing more than to find a sickly dying vegan to prove that we must torture animal and feed on their juices, and being radiantly powerfully healthy is the best argument you/she will ever have to give, so be careful in making good decisions. Asses

u/Pinot911 · -2 pointsr/food
u/phrakture · -2 pointsr/Fitness

The best advice here: read The Vegetarian Myth

u/Brendancs0 · -5 pointsr/todayilearned

Any vegetarians here, this should shut those hypocrites up for good.
NOT BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, NOT MORALLY SUPERIOR, and NOT HEALTHIER
http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804

u/GiR8Tacos · -7 pointsr/environment

Sustainable agriculture student here, it's the system not the product that's the problem. And it's no wonder you get sick since you're eating sick cows. Check out Allan Savory's work, it might open your eyes. Also, soy is actually poison.

Edit: better yet, read this book!

u/rayout · -18 pointsr/pics

Should have saved him the damage to his body and gotten him this book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335714256&sr=8-1

Vegan diet = poor health.