Reddit reviews The White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good
We found 17 Reddit comments about The White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
Penguin Books
How do we know you're really one of the first two redditors, and not just some guy trying to profit by pulling one over on the internet?
> Trappist brews
You got a favorite? How do you spell it?
> White Man's Burden
I assume you mean this one, right? Turns out it's a pretty popular title.
A lot of those people are being fed by misguided food aid programs. Populations in Africa in particular (where birth rates are the highest in the world) are pushed beyond the carrying capacity of the local economies by perpetual food socialism. It's sort of like the opposite of the Ukrainian famine: instead of too little food, it's too much food, signalling abundance when the local conditions are actually those of severe poverty.
For more on this, books like Dead Aid and the White Man's Burden are great at explaining this phenomenon.
>I've heard of people advocating an "Ideal and stable population size" but I can't see how this would be implemented without the state. So basically, What do you think will happen in the future with regards to the growth of population and the demand it will cause?
This is complicated. One one hand, the people guided by Harvardprincetonyale dogma believe that it's their secular-sacred duty to feed the poor in Africa and to provide advice on how to manage and finance their affairs through the network of international financial institutions, NGOs, and UN-affiliated groups.
On the other, because central planning has a lot of trouble providing for growing populations (it's another variable to account for), they want to control that population growth at least somewhat. The same population growth that exceeds the capacity for those societies to provide for the new people caused by the foreign subsidies creates a problem that the same inept bureaucracy to manage through the promotion of population control programs.
There's no real way to 'solve' this problem in a clean manner. Billions of people are unfortunately reliant on the Harvardprincetonyale Axis of Ultimate Goodness for their continued survival.
Market signals provide critical information to people about whether to expand their families or to not expand them. When those market signals become distorted, people may either fail to produce sufficient children to maintain the prosperity of the society, or they may produce too many for the existing social structure to support to a general level of satisfaction.
The Soviet-Harvard delusion is that by providing food and by suppressing large-scale warfare, 'development' will proceed apace. What has resulted is that populations have exploded beyond the capacity of local economies to provide for them, and the same provision of welfare-food has empowered various dictatorial entities while preventing the emergence of local markets to help genuine society to flourish. Meanwhile, religiously-motivated armies threaten to break up some of the largest states (like Nigeria).
Unfortunately in their attempts to do good, the Axis of Ultimate Goodness has created a fragile series of powderkeg-countries where long-suppressed conflicts threaten to explode into horrific global warfare (see: Egypt). Modern humans in many parts of the world (including the developed world) have been cut off from accurate market information for a very long time, leading to distorted patterns of societal development that are ill-adapted to real conditions in the world.
My speculation that's not a prophecy at all is that three factors will prevent these population projections from being achieved:
These projections rest on a lot of ridiculous assumptions and naive math models. They're best understood at pitches for more funding. "If we don't get another billion dollars to promote condom usage, we're gonna have a big problem!" The problems are much more significant, severe, and inherently political in nature.
Population growth is neither a problem nor an unmitigated boon. It's just another factor for humans to calibrate with their desires and real conditions on Earth and within societies. Distorting price signals prevents humans from coordinating with one another in an effective way. The larger the society becomes, the more important that accurate market signals are to its continued functioning.
how about we start with this one.
I was inspired by this, but can't make salad dressing. And White Man's Burden is breadpig required reading ;)
By request, I am reposting this from a comment response further down about disagreeing with the idea that they could have ended poverty with their finances.
The sentiment in the article is wrong. I spent a while studying poverty and foreign aid in Africa and the idea of spending money to end poverty was something we looked at quite a bit.
Poverty is not a simple issue and throwing money at the problem is not just going to end it. For a real end to poverty there is going to need to be a genuine redistribution of wealth. We in the west live in a world of extreme abundance. Many of those who are poor have much more than those in other countries. If the rest of the world lived like we did, we would not be able to sustain our way of life. That would be the first big thing to changing poverty.
The next thing is trade/consumption. The economies of many countries in Africa are not sufficient right now to handle an influx of money. We have seen what happens in countries like Nigeria, where massive corruption meant that the huge proceeds of the oil industry did not do a ton of good. As well, many African countries do not have the geographical location to be a self sustaining country (see Niger). The borders were largely drawn by the Berlin Conference and were based on the whim of the Europeans there. What that meant was borders and countries were set up to benefit the colonial powers, not to actually be self sustaining countries. If we really wanted to end poverty, then corruption and trade issues would need to be resolved. The countries cannot escape poverty through an influx of money.
Lastly, poverty is a very complex issue. There are so many factors that coming in from the outside and thinking we can fix it is a very bad point of view, somewhat in line with colonial thinking (that we know better, etc). To really fix things, the efforts have to be driven by the residents of the countries for the people of the country. We can help, but there is no way as outsiders that we can solve poverty.
This is what I have seen and learned in my time.
Sources: Berlin Conference
The White Man's Burden (Foreign Aid Economics and Ethics book)
Nine Hills to Nambonkaha (Aid in Côte d'Ivoire written by a former Peace Corp Volunteer based on her notes)
Nigeria Corruption
Trying to find one last book on a microcredit NGO in Kenya.
For further reading, I'd recommend Bill Easterly; The White Mans Burden is his direct rebuttal to Jeffery Sachs' The End of Poverty.
He gives a pretty entertaining talk on the book as well.
For a more thorough exploration of this topic, check out The White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good by William Easterly. Title says it all really, this guy is one of the leading economic thinkers in the aid field, but very readable
I highly recommend this book. It shocked the hell out of me and my fellow students in my NGO course in grad school.
This article also sums up the problem. Africa needs trade, not aid. It's basically been a welfare recipient so long that it can't take care of itself.
Overall, the actual per-capita income in most sub-saharan African countries has done down since the end of colonialism in the 1960s. Part of the reason is that aid has been massively wasted, undercut local businesses and farmers, while any modest gains in quality of life have been wiped out by the subsequent population explosion.
The big 2 are:
The End of Poverty
and
The White Man's Burden
Which conveniently, disagree on most particulars. Also read every paper written at
JPAL
> It seems like you are trying to blame poverty on assistance programs
I think poverty is a very very complex social problem that has scores of causes and assistance programs that are not designed well (and maybe even ones that are designed well) are a factor in some peoples poverty yes. Do I think it's a primary factor? Probably not, I'm not sure. Do I think we don't study the long effects of government programs closely enough. Absolutely.
>but I don't think you understand who uses them. Most people on assistance DO work.
I think your trying to toss me in with a lot of old people that bought into the welfare queen myth of the 80's which I am not one. I've seen the statistics and I do understand that many people on welfare work. My concern was on how welfare is structured and it's potential to trap people and not encourage them to work into higher income bracket where they can support themselves without assistance. My other concern was it's potential unstudied effects like destruction of fatherhood, class conflict, incentivizeing fraud, victim mentality, etc. I'm pro or con black or white issue. Again, I'm not completely against welfare programs I just think we should be very very careful about how they are used and should closely study outcomes. For the record I was raised very liberal and support welfare programs and called for more of them for years but have sense altered my position.
> And a large portion of the users are lower enlisted military families
I've actually never heard this. Most military families I know are not rich but are not hurting because of generous banking terms (very low loan rates), healthcare supplementation and housing/food support if living on base or near it. If this is true the military should look into this and possibly adjust wages. No military family should need food stamps (unless of course it's a single earning parent at the lowest rung of the military with a non working spouse who has chosen to have more then 3 or 4 kids and in that case that's incredibly irresponsible and should not be allowed or encouraged with benefits.) I'm also wondering if this is due to higher cost of living in certain areas? Which the military should again look into...
> Assistance alone isn't enough for someone to abuse the system.
I don't know what you mean by this. People abuse systems all the time regardless of what you think is worth abusing based on your moral compass.
> This country has a relatively efficient system.
This might be true but I'm highly highly skeptical. How would you really measure this. Is there a non biased non profit that's looked at efficiency of welfare systems and ranks the US highly on gov efficiency?? My original comment wasn't just about efficiency but about long term societal cost of creating potential people trapped in systemic poverty and welfare being a 'factor' in that trap.
I again want to just stop here and tell you I'm not against welfare and if you press a lot of conservatives many aren't for a complete break down of welfare either. Let's say you designed a government program that gave people a free bus ticket and housing stipend to move to areas with lower cost of living and more jobs. I think you'd find more support for a program like that. Or maybe you wanted to redesign the tax system and take benefits away but also pay people a small universal income. This idea actually came from conservative economists and is also called a negative tax. It saves a lot of money because it gets government out of a lot of administrative and enforcement costs of running these programs and stimulates the economy. I know that these programs also have drawbacks and potential pitfalls down the road but they should be on the table and the conservative talking points should be discussed not dismissed as racist or heartless. People go into fight or flight when they are dismissed and attacked. That's what's going on in our country we've completely stopped talking to people with opposing viewpoints and simply gone into attack mode, in group out group mode.
> Spending tax dollars on weeding out the abusers is an over glorified witch hunt.
Is catching speeders a witch hunt? Is fining litterers a witch hunt? I'm not sure I support the drug tests but you have to at least understand why people might want a drug test?? They don't want their hard earned dollar going to people sitting around all day doing drugs or doing drugs and working. If most people using welfare are normal working people then a drug test shouldn't be a big deal right? Again I'm just playing devils advocate.
> They came up with nothing significant and used millions to do it.
Agreed. It was a basically a stunt and the drug testing company was owned by one of the politicians pushing it. So it was just a way to fleece the conservative base. This is also a bad thing. But just imagine if dems would have come to the table and tried to make a compromise? Maybe it wouldn't have been such a fiasco.
> I don't want to pay for the road that gets you home but I still have to because you should have a road.
I think now you're trying to straw man me. I'm not stating that we shouldn't have taxes that pay for items for the common good. I'm saying that using guns to take peoples money and give it to someone else is not right it's a privilege that was given to the government through contractual consent. The people that founded this country agreed to be governed and they can un-agree if they feel that the contract is broken. (I know I sound like a bit of a militia nut with that statement but that's what our country was founded on, contractual agreement by men that really didn't like powerful central government controlled by a king or a massive populace).
> Gather multiple sources and educate yourself.
I'd like to believe I have actually (because I grew up reading and thumping it to people). I feel like I've heard both arguments but feel free to recommend pro welfare literature/sites. Personally I'd highly recommend you try out these books for starters.
https://www.amazon.com/Framework-Understanding-Poverty-4th/dp/1929229488
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055
(This second book is very biased and written by a guy that was overexposed and probably burnt out by really shit people but at least he's honest about his bias)
https://www.amazon.com/White-Mans-Burden-Efforts-Little/dp/0143038826
https://www.amazon.com/Death-Common-Sense-Suffocating-America/dp/0812982746
> As for what affects culture, our President, the figurehead of our country, is stumbling through the presidency like a toddler
LOL. Totally agree. I grabbed a bottle of rye at 7am and watched the hearings and I think this guy needs to be impeached. Please don't assume because I'm critical of welfare design and long term societal impacts that I'm a Trump voter.
> He is not just using tax dollars, he is flagrantly wasting tax dollars. That is what affects our culture.
Yes. I agree with this as well. Lots of things waste our tax dollars. Waste will always be part of the system but that doesn't mean we give up the fight tpo monitor and adjust it.
> Who can trust government when they cut healthcare with one hand and sign up for millions in travel costs with the other?
You bring up a very interesting point here. Neither side is really getting it's way in the government and we are having such wild swings of political ideology that the next leadership team is undoing whatever the last one established. Trust of government is completely broken but this has only served to allow astro turf corporate candidates infest our government. Corporations have more say in our government then it's citizens and the plebs are busy having a bullshit culture war and arguing at each other while the golden goose is getting robbed. Neither base is really getting any answer or solutions to their problems because of graft, corruption and income inequality/class warfare.
You seem like an intelligent person. You might like this analysis written by a programmer named Michael O. Church about class in the US.
https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183427/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/
> Maybe what you are saying is the reasoning behind certain ways of thinking but it just doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense because our political beliefs are largely influenced by deeply ingrained schema on how we see the world taught to us by our families. It's really difficult to see that the other-side has a legit argument without understanding their worldview.
Lakhoff nailed this in his book 'Don't Think of an Elephant'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4UfGZOPJjE
> Maybe it's easier to tear apart nameless "freeloaders" than accept one more problem with the President.
LOL. Why not both?? ....Just kidding. I don't think most welfare abusers see themselves as freeloaders. I think people in poverty are living day to day and think that abusing the system is just surviving and I think the white collar criminals are probably in a very warped way thinking the same way. Humans are gonna human.
In closing I just want to say that you can have a lot of compassion of other humans and want to see a better society with happier, well fed people and be against certain welfare programs. Humans are hell-a complicated and there are other ways to make people health and happy besides cutting a segment of them a check or a rebate or a voucher.
If you do read any of my sources and want to chat feel free to save me and PM me anytime. Have a great night!
I don't particularly like Dead Aid, although I think Ed Carr articulated its many, many problems better than I could.
As alternatives, I would recommend:
I definitely agree with you on fiction as a great source of learning about Africa. Along with your recommendations I would add:
Read The White Man's Burden amazon. Easterly has a lot to say about helping the world's poor and why many efforts have failed in the past.
You've stumbled onto a whole subfield of economics: Development Economics.
Here is a list of all NBER papers tagged with development.
This is a good resource regarding the EITC (check the citations).
If you are looking for "lay person friendly" books, I'd recommend:
This is a really wide field in economics.
Do you agree with William Easterly's theory that all international aid, including the Gates Foundation, is bad?
on the surface I know my stance sounds absurd but it's actually something I'm involved with and very passionate about. I direct you to some accessible reads from William Easterly White Man's Burden and The Tyranny of Experts or there's a recent popular documentary, Poverty, Inc, which I'm a fan of. Things like the Gates Foundation do not help long term.
That's a monster of a question. Hell, development economics is an entire academic field, you might as well ask 'ELI5: Physics'. Anyone who seriously thinks they can give you an answer here is lying to you, and probably to themselves as well.
That being said, for my money there are three books that are really required reading on the topic of how countries end up poor, plus two books that are required reading on why it's so hard to fix. I'd call them the bare minimum to call yourself literate on the subject.
Two that you should read on why it's so hard to fix global poverty (Poor Economics sits at the intersection).
So much for reasoned debate & facts & logic. Proving how ideology indoctrinated and compromised you are.
Here's just a FEW of my sources on agricultural policy. As you can see, none but 2 are from left wing sources.
https://www.heritage.org/agriculture/report/farms-and-free-enterprise-blueprint-agricultural-policy
https://www.heritage.org/agriculture/report/how-farm-subsidies-harm-taxpayers-consumers-and-farmers-too
https://www.cato.org/commentary/should-united-states-cut-its-farm-subsidies
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/bringing-economic-sanity-agricultural-trade
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-8268.00020
https://www.amazon.com/White-Mans-Burden-Efforts-Little/dp/0143038826
https://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/04/02/william-easterly/why-doesnt-aid-work
https://www.rt.com/usa/414931-ron-paul-america-meltdown/
http://priceofoil.org/2017/10/03/report-trumps-energy-dominance-plans-rely-on-billions-in-fossil-fuel-subsidies/
https://www.ucsusa.org/our-work/food-agriculture/advance-sustainable-agriculture/subsidizing-waste#.WueNqtMbNfY
http://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-boundaries/planetary-boundaries/about-the-research/the-nine-planetary-boundaries.html
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/federal-dollars-are-financing-the-water-crisis-in-the-west/
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/08/Subsidizing-Waste-full-report.pdf
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/01/farm-subsidies-trump-budget-cuts-has-agriculture-industry-worried.html
https://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/175292/2/11%20EP%202%202014-11.pdf
https://grist.org/food/our-crazy-farm-subsidies-explained/
http://www.nber.org/chapters/c8073.pdf
https://www.thenation.com/article/totalitarianism-famine-and-us/
https://isreview.org/issue/79/politics-famine
Edit:
Here's four more AnCap Sources
https://c4ss.org/content/25615
https://www.mutualist.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/MPE.pdf
https://www.mutualist.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/otkc11.pdf
https://c4ss.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/intellectual-property-a-libertarian-critique.pdf
A critique of IP Monopoly that's relevant:
http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/papers/imbookfinalall.pdf
Some Leftish work on how state sanctioned monopoly starves the world
http://resistir.info/livros/imperialism_john_smith.pdf
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/4625512/917882442/name/michael_parenti_against_empire.pdf
https://books.google.com/books/about/Extracting_Profit.html?id=WYqZnQAACAAJ
https://vimeo.com/259759925