Reddit reviews The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers, 3rd Edition
We found 26 Reddit comments about The Writers Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers, 3rd Edition. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
Michael Wiese Productions
Dan Harmon, creator of Community, is a student of Joseph Campbell and the use of the hero's journey in storytelling. Dan wrote about Story Structure on the channel101 forums years ago. The article's images seem to be missing, and he was writing to inspire 5 minute episodes for channel101, but it's still a great read.
There are books that go over the "Hero with a Thousand Faces" and storytelling, so you might want to check those out too if you're inspired by the idea.
EDIT:
just found this funny video where Dan talks about structure, also found the articles with pics at the channel101 wiki, but the forum posts have extras, like his comment about Star Wars and the monomyth in 104-1, Tarantino and Pulp Fiction in 104-2, etc.
YouTube - The Matrix - Joseph Campbell Monomyth
YouTube - LOST - A Hero's Journey
YouTube - Dan Harmon and Rob Schrab interview
Do NOT go into debt for film school.
If it is payed for, then sure, it should be a lot of fun. But your reel already surpasses 95% of what I see from students who have already graduated film school.
If you are taking out money to go to film school.... dont. Student loan payments are one of the biggest obstacles when trying to launch a freelance career. Also, a film degree doesnt mean dick to most people in this industry. Unless you want to have a 9-5 at a studio or something. And thats stupid.
Use the money to:
or
http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0413715604/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=
http://www.amazon.com/Screenplay-Foundations-Screenwriting-Syd-Field/dp/0385339038/ref=pd_sim_b_9
http://www.amazon.com/The-Writers-Journey-Structure-Edition/dp/193290736X/ref=pd_sim_b_5
http://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009/ref=pd_sim_b_2
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Movies-Sidney-Lumet/dp/0679756604
Absorb. Read again. Then write and shoot your own movies. It will cost less than film school, it will be MORE fun than listening to failed film makers telling you how to make movies, and it could potentially launch your career.
Also, if you are ever in New Orleans, PM me and I will buy you a beer.
Try it and find out.
It doesn't MATTER what model you use. None of them magically make your script great.
Here are some others you can think about. Experiment and find out what feels most comfortable for you and seems to work best with the story you're trying to tell.
Three Acts
A really old (but still useful) model of story-telling structure involves three acts:
Occasionally, like with Job in the Bible, shit just happens to a character. But it’s usually much more interesting when a character actively tries to solve a problem or achieve some goal.
Probably the most famous explainer of the three-act structure for screenwriting is Syd Field in Screenplay.
A similar model is in How to Write a Movie in 21 Days by Viki King.
Hero’s Journey
Another really old (but still useful) model of structure involves a “hero’s journey.”
Joseph Campbell is often associated with this model, but it’s as old as story-telling.
Basically, the hero’s journey
>involves a hero who goes on an adventure, and in a decisive crisis wins a victory, and then comes home changed or transformed.
This model was applied to screenwriting in The Writer’s Journey by Christopher Vogler.
It’s all about theme
Craig Mazin (HBO’s Chernobyl and the Scriptnotes podcast) says structure is all about theme.
He says it’s about asking what your character believes at the beginning, and what you want that character to believe at the end.
The structure of a script thus arises out of the character confronting, and wrestling with, that thematic question.
He talks about it here.
The Unified Theory of Screenwriting
In this interview, I talked with Ashley Miller (Thor, X-Men First Class). Here’s what he had to say about structure:
>I’m not a fan of anything that smacks of formula—“If you do this, your screenplay will work.”
I don’t care if you’re talking about Christopher Vogler, or if you’re talking about Robert McKee, or if you’re talking about Blake Snyder. I don’t believe that’s how the creation process works.
What they’ve each identified is an analytical tool. They’ve identified a way of looking at a product in retrospect and telling you what the parts are.
In other words, many structure models are autopsies – but they’re not recipes.
Miller combined a bunch of different structure models into a chart that he could apply to his own work – as a diagnostic tool AFTER he wrote one or more drafts.
>I’m not saying, “This isn’t working because it fails to meet any of these standards.”
What I’m asking is, “Am I getting an insight about what’s making me feel this bump in the story?
What’s making me hear and smell the gears grinding?”
You can see the chart at the interview link above.
Joseph Campbell.
One key thing to remember: Campbell's work is descriptive, not prescriptive. What I mean is that he was describing and interpreting the trends that he found in mostly ancient folklore, myths, and legends. He had no intention of creating a formula for storytellers to refer to, although this is now common practice.
Also, "Star Wars closely follows the monomyth" is really not a topic. You need to answer the "So what?" question. Why did Lucas do that? Where does he deviate from the monomyth? How does he use these common trends to tell a unique story? How does it reflect the time in which it was produced? You don't have to answer all of these questions, but you do need to address something beyond simply plugging in Star Wars characters and situations where appropriate.
You should probably seek out the Joseph Campbell-Bill Moyers collaboration The Power of Myth*. Lots of libraries have a copy. It is much, much easier to digest than Campbell's original work, unless you are already familiar with a great number of myths and extensive academic terminology. The tv series by the same name is pretty good, as well. For a book that uses Campbell's monomyth but updates it with examples from modern media (and a prescriptive purpose), pick this up.
Source: Wrote master's thesis using Campbell scholarship as a resource.
It depends on what you're drawn to. Are you more interested in interpretation of story for your own personal growth? Or interpretation of films? Or are you looking to create stories?
The best books I know on this subject at least on interpretive myth include:
In my experience, after Campbell people usually begin to drift toward what their personal myths are. So you have some people who get really into film and get caught on Vogler or Bonnet's work, others who want to go help returning veterans and end up getting really into Odysseus in America. Or people begin focusing on different cultures and religions and move from there.
The Writer's Journey is a pretty standard text. It isn't specifically focused on comedy or screenwriting, but the lessons are applicable. It is based on "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell (the link has the entire text on google books). Dan Harmon's "story circle" is also based on this work.
>I know both Harmon's story circles and Snyder's StC is a variation of the Hero's Journey
All different names for the same thing.
>I know a lot of people don't like Save the Cat
People don't like Save the Cat because they view it as formulaic.
Save the Cat is like the Better Homes and Gardens Cookbook. You can follow a recipe and have a pretty good meal. Probably better than attempting to make it by pure guesswork, even. But you're not going to become a professional chef with that alone. It's not exactly telling you why it's using coriander instead of cumin, which to a beginner may very well be the same damn thing.
Use the training wheels. Get used to writing. Next up, read something like Syd Field's Screenwriting or Robert McKee's Story. Once you're done, check out Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey. And from now until whenever, continue to read scripts by others (both good and bad).
Best book on screenwriting, or most any kind of storytelling, for that matter... ever.
Rome is the motherfucking shit. Check out Mucius Scaevola, Horatius Cocles, and Cincinnatus from Livy's Ab Urbe Condita, for starters. Or hell, just Netflix the HBO series and start doing research until you understand everything, from marriages to army structure to political offices. The Romans can keep you busy for years, and I've found all my Classical study to be freakishly helpful in understanding... almost everything.
Novels, I recommend the following authors: George R.R. Martin, Lois McMaster Bujold (Her Miles Vorkosigan stuff, not the fantasy), Terry Pratchett, and E.E. Knight.
https://www.amazon.com/Writers-Journey-Mythic-Structure-3rd/dp/193290736X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BLP9OJJ5V1W6&keywords=vogler+writers+journey&qid=1574454754&sprefix=vogler%2Caps%2C230&sr=8-1
AND it's dirt cheap now.
Two major factors explain this:
Anyone who has written a screenplay has a heavily highlighted version of this on their bookshelf: http://www.amazon.com/The-Writers-Journey-Structure-Edition/dp/193290736X
Both of these plots seemed like that f/x familiar-yet-unpredictable sweet spot to studio heads when they approved them 2-3 years ago.
Understanding the three act structure is imperative. If you can think of something that you've written in the past and can apply it, or at least place the details and events in the structure, that should help a lot. McKee is a good read. It should answer a ton of questions.
The Writer's Journey is great too. But if you can write and you understand the structure that is looked for in visual media, you should be good.
You're probably confused about what having beats in a script means.
(beat)
is used to indicate a pause and/or shift in emotion in dialog. However, it is pretty cliche and should only be used when absolutely necessary. I tend to only see it used a lot in amateur scripts where they feel the need to direct the conversation way too much.
"Beats" can also mean story beats such as the inciting incident, dramatic question, crisis, climax, etc. Like someone else said, Bruce's parents die before page 20. Obviously, that is major. That would be the inciting incident. The dramatic question is what Bruce does now that he is put in this situation without parents and heir to a corporation. Will he use this power to avenge their deaths? (Yes.)
I would suggest this book. Obsessing about structure too much leads to generic, cookie cutter stories, but it's important to know the rules before you can break the rules.
All of them, really. Absolutely no harm will come from reading all the books out there (for a while). At worst, you'll learn ways of doing things that DON'T work for you but it's still good knowledge to have.
After a while, eventually, you'll start noticing though that all the new books out are just copying and rephrasing the books that came before them. That's when it's time to stop.
Some of the popular ones are syd field's book, Robert McKee's book, Joseph Campbell's book (and imo a book called The Writer's Journey by Christopher something that analyzes Campbell's book and puts it into modern story telling terms). That'll get you started. I have varying opinions of each of those books and none of them should be adhered to by law, but they ALL contain concepts and theories that, as a professional writer, you'd do well to expose yourself to. If for no other reason than that you can be aware of the concepts when others talk about them.
Tangentially, Stephen king's On Writing and William Goldman's books are great reads but don't necessarily apply to the craft of screen writing directly. Also useful to read any interviews or collections of interviews with screen writers. You may also want to check out some podcasts, Jeff goldsmith's interviews with screen writers is great and I have no idea if it's still available or even what it's called but I used to listen to one titled something like Sam and Jim Go to Hollywood (I am positive I got those names wrong) about two guys who up and quit their careers as restaurant owners and moved to Hollywood to become writers and share what they've learned. Ted Rossio and Terry Elliot also run, or ran, a website with forums (which are eh) and and a collection of articles about screen writing which are fantastic.
This was all stuff I was into years ago, so I don't know how much of it is still relevant, because like I said when you get to a certain point you've kind of read everything out there and it all starts repeating itself, and you realize all that's left is to read screenplays and write a ton.
Good luck.
e: back on my computer, here are some links:
Syd Field's Sreenplay (he has several books out, that's the one you should start with as it lays the foundation for basic story structure of nearly all modern movies. IMO, it's also the best one out there because he never says these are rules in any way, he simply analyzed a bunch of movies and lays out his findings for you to do with as you wish)
Robert McKee's Story
Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces
and Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey
Stephen King's On Writing which describes his writing style and, while I don't prefer it, is a very interesting style similar to the Cohen Brothers
William Goldman's Adventures in the Screen Trade and Which Lie did I Tell? two accounts of William Goldman's experiences as one of the top writers in Hollywood, and dealing with the business. Writer of The Princess Bride, Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid, and many others. Dude's a legend.
Jeff Goldsmith's Q&A podcast he also did the same style podcast while working for a screenwriting magazine, though the name escapes me right now
Sam and Jim Go to Hollywood holy shit I got their names right I can't believe it. Seems to be dead for a few years but it looks like their podcasts are still up.
Wordplay, Ted & Terry's website read every single one of those articles
e: BONUS! Not that useful as an educational resource, but it's fun to read Ken Levine's blog, writer on MASH and Cheers Ken's blog (no, not the guy who made BioShock)
Read more and then read this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193290736X/
If you're interested in the storytelling side I would recommend The Writers Journey which is based upon The Hero with a Thousand Faces.
Also some great YouTube videos from Kal Bashir.
Have a look at this chart.
This is the emotional course of a typical story. Like I said before, you don't have to follow this strictly but I found that it helps to get you moving in the right direction.
Take a look at the scenes and story ideas you already have and see where they fit in this chart. When I start a new story, in my head I always feel like I've got the whole thing figured out. Then when I start outlining I see that really only have maybe 25% of it.
So the work begins to figure out what's missing, scenes, characters, story arcs, etc... Who is your protagonist, antagonist, what do they want? What's stopping them from getting what they want?
A pretty good book I can recommend is The Writer's Journey.
It's funny because I was tempted to correct your initial summation Campbell's work but decided against it since I was also in the process of admitting how shitty it is to correct someone on something that's not even part of the point they were making.
But to say that Campbell's work is a simplification or "plebeian bastardization" of Jung's work is not accurate. It's common practice in academic writing for a scholar to build upon the work of another. So it's more accurate to say that Campbell was influenced by or that he built upon Jung's writing on archetypes and the collective subconscious. But while Campbell is writing on the nature of myths, Jung was a psychologist building upon Freud's earlier work to a completely different end.
Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that the sentiment in this sub regarding Campbell's work being derivative and therefore less valuable is unfair because it is the nature of academic writing to build upon the writings of your predecessor.
The Hero with a Thousand Faces is the seminal work in the field and clearly the source of Harmon's inspiration. I'd also recommend Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey as the best and most succint interpretation and analysis of Campbell's ideas as a framework for contemporary story and writing.
Seriously, get Vogler's The Writer's Journey. It is much more practical, open-ended and inspiring than Save the Cat. It's based off of the ideas of Joseph Campbell, whose worke inspired Star Wars. It is a much more classic and legitimate structure than Save the Cat, and yet it is a series of guidelines, not hard-pressed rules. Blake Snyder in his book basically says if you deviate from my formula, you suck. The dude even hates Memento.
Or read Lajos Egri's The Art of Dramatic Writing. It seems your problem is that you don't have a defined character with hopes, goals, worst nightmares and biggest weaknesses. That should be the starting point of any script: your character. This book opens you up to finding out what you value about your character and how to build them for dramatic conflict. Its a revelation for someone who hasn't thought of story as character arcs and dramatic progression.
Well, solidify the idea you want to convey first, then, make a map or something so you can travel through all those characters you like to create, place them, on the stories, fiction, non-fiction, western, drama, etc, etc,
some things that may help you:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Fiction-Writers-Readers/dp/0452281547
http://www.amazon.com/On-Becoming-Novelist-John-Gardner-ebook/dp/B00AB7NYZU
http://www.amazon.com/The-Writers-Journey-Structure-Edition/dp/193290736X
I know more about narrative. I recomend you:
Vogler is meant to be a more accessible introduction to the hero's journey concepts (https://www.amazon.com/Writers-Journey-Mythic-Structure-3rd/dp/193290736X as recommended by shawn coyne of the story grid book /podcast)
Lololol, no, sir, YOU are the one who REALLY, TRULY, isn't getting it. I don't have to read anything to know if something completely different is good or not, but thx.
For your leisure I'd like to recommend a few books about basic screenwriting so that you don't get stuck in something like this again:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Writers-Journey-Structure-Edition/dp/193290736X
http://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Screenplay-Sucks-Ways-Great/dp/1932907459
http://www.amazon.com/Screenwriting-Dummies-Laura-Schellhardt/dp/0764554867/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418859323&sr=1-2&keywords=screenwriting+for+dummies
Let me know when it clicks! :-D
> I wanted to add that the Hero's Journey has almost become a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
The reason for that is Christopher Vogel's The Writer's Journey. In the mid-80's, Vogel worked for Disney, and he developed a 20-page guide to the Hero's Journey for Disney screenwriters. He turned it into a book on script-writing, and it has gone on to become one of the best selling book on screen-writing ever, if not the best (I think only Syd Field's Screenwriting could compete with it). I've taken three different screenwriting courses, and it's been assigned reading in all of them.
As a result, nearly every film aimed at a mass audience -- and especially movies aimed at children -- has been very deliberately built around the Hero's Journey.
Chapters are as long as you want them to be. :) There are no rules for chapters in books - your chapters can be 40 pages long or 3 pages long if you want. Typically, a chapter should end when something changes or an event occurs - when the big bad shows up, when a character says something revealing, when the character moves to a new area etc. This includes mundane things, like leaving the house, going to sleep, setting up camp etc etc - you don't want your story to be filled with action packed moments or surprises and new chapters every couple of pages, because you need down time inbetween important events!
You can even have no chapters if you like, there are no concrete rules.
For reading, read your own favourite fantasy books and authors! There's a reason why your favourite author is your favourite. Consider why. What about their writing, stories, world and plot do you like the best? Why do you like that author more than another? Do you want to write classic high fantasy, 'low' fantasy, urban fantasy? Find the most popular authors in those genres and give them a read.
I think an important read for any writer is The Writer's Journey. It's a really great easy to read text on structure in writing and the various 'Archetypes' of characters. Knowing HOW to structure a story is the key to be able to write a good story.
I'm not sure if it's still relevant since I read all this when I was a kid, but Elfwood has some great world building resources and 'tutorials.'
The Writer's Journey - By Christopher Vogler
Positive Discipline because my oldest son is driving me nuts.
The Writer's Journey because I enjoy writing short stories and screenplays.