Reddit reviews Tojiro DP Santoku 6.7" (17cm)

> Are Wüsthof and J.A. Henckels much better than the Victorinox knives?

They mostly (if not always) use the same steel. Wüsthof and Henckels take it to a slightly higher hardness, but the main gains are, if you prefer them, a thicker forged blade, a full-length bolster all the way to the heel (at least for many models), and a full-tang handle with riveted grip slabs.

> Are there any obscure Japanese knifemakers I should know of that make exceptional Santoku knives?

There are many, but they tend to have exceptional price tags to match. One very nice santoku: https://www.amazon.com/Yoshihiro-Hayate-ZDP-189-Stainless-Santoku/dp/B00BCOXWDK/

Well-known Japanese makers make quite good santoku knives at a reasonable price. For example:

If you want a Western-style handle: https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Santoku-6-7-17cm/dp/B000UAPQEA

If you want a Japanese-style handle: https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-Finished-Shiro-ko-Kasumi-Santoku/dp/B000UAQORS/

A little bit more expensive, but better steel: https://www.amazon.com/Santoku-All-Purpose-Kitchen-Aogami-Kurouchi/dp/B014H28508/

A little bit bigger: https://www.amazon.com/Santoku-Kitchen-Aogami-Kurouchi-Double/dp/B019ESUG34/

Sounds like you might be interested in r/chefknives.

As to your question, best is subjective but I can pretty much guarantee it's neither a Shun nor a Miyabi. These knives us VG-10/MAX (mostly) which is a good steel, but not a great steel. It's somewhere in the middle of "holds an edge well" and "is not going to break on you", though this isn't as true for Shuns which just love chipping. Proper technique and care makes VG-10 a boring budget stainless steel. Apply the same rules to something like carbon White #2, Blue #2, or 52100 and you have something really great. (edit: Or HAP40, ZDP-189, AEB-L for stainless.)

There's also profiles to consider but santokus tend to vary quite a bit. The Shun is a bit out there while the Miyabi looks pretty typical. Not much else to say here.

Let's look at two knives, the Tojiro DP and the Masakage Yuki, both popular Japanese knives.

The Tojiro is san mai with VG-10 as is the Shun and Miyabi, but the Tojiro costs nearly half as much. They will all perform about the same but the Shun/Miyabi will have better fit and finish; more polish, maybe rounded edges, etc.

The Masakage is also san mai but with White #2. It will hold an edge better than the Tojiro, Shun, Miyabi, and have better fit and finish than any of the others. The core steel is reactive so the half inch or so of steel closest to the edge will rust if not taken care of.

So what makes one of these knives better than the other? For me it's materials, quality, and whether or not the final price reflects what I feel the value is. Tojiro gets an A-, Masakage an B+, Miyabi a C, and Shun a C.

Here's a bunch of santokus on CKTG, mostly handmade.
You can find more on JCK. And KnivesAndStones. EpicureanEdge.

edit 2: Someone downvoted all of the other comments so you all got my upvote

For $120 and two knives, there is the omnipresent starter option - the Tojiro DP line.

I'd start with the gyuto or the santoku. They overlap for the larger tasks and its really more preference on the shape. They both are too thin and the steel is too brittle to cut bones or hard vegetables (pumpkin/squash) with (which your Wusthof can take care of) but will go through veg and protein pretty easily.

Then you have budget left over for the petty, which is kind of like a long thin paring knife. Good for smaller tasks or things that need delicate tip work.

you might even have some budget left over to pick up a stone. This is a popular beginner option.

Edit: The other option is MAC knives. Same shapes apply

At this point that Victorinox is ridiculously expensive. 45 dollars is getting into actual good quality knife territory. Everyone suggesting it has inflated the price over the years. I believe it used to be suggested as a $25 dollar knife. At that price it really was good. Now its just a very expensive stamped knife. I like the rest though.

Figured I should edit and give a suggestion at least. If you want something japanese you can pay 5 more dollars and get something MUCH higher in quality. [Santoku] (https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Santoku-6-7-17cm/dp/B000UAPQEA/ref=pd_sim_79_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XYK8APTJRV3GXQJ8FF0R) or for 15 dollars more than the Victorinox you can get a [chef] (https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Gyutou-8-2-21cm/dp/B000UAPQGS/ref=pd_bxgy_79_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TA5DHYJ86S2HA6SQP8VX) Style Japanese Knife. For something European I would go with Ramsey's suggestion to look at Heckles or Wosthof and just prowl Ebay. They will probably be around 45 dollars for a Heckles 8in chef knife.

Rostende Messer: http://tosa-hocho.de/ die Zakuri sind echt Klasse, extrem scharf und leicht. Allerdings im Moment nicht lieferbar

oder auf Amazon: F503 Tojiro DP 3-Lagen HQ Santoku
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000UAPQEA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
(Aufpassen ich musste meines beim Zoll abholen, da versand aus Japan)

The steel in the victorinox is definitely softer. Here's my current suggestions for people thinking about buying cheaper knives.

(Copy and pasted from something I've posted before, but with some updates)


TL;DR: In the category of budget knives. For longer lasting edges, Tojiro DP Santoku or Gyuto for $43 and $52 (now $62) respectively, or the Augymer for $30. For easier maintenance, Kai 6720C or Henckels Forged Synergy for $32 and $35, respectively.



As a caveat, budget knives of all sorts are not going to have the fit and finish of higher priced knives. For Knives that are easy to obtain lump you into two categories that have pros and cons, German hardness and Japanese hardness. Which is mainly a trade off between sharpness/edge holding vs durability/ease of maintenance. Although you can sharpen really soft metals to be stupid sharp and a really acute angle, it will not last long at all. But when the edge gets rolled over from a cutting session, it can be easily honed back into place. Harder knives can still be honed back into place, but techniques and tools are slightly different--I would never touch my harder knives with a grooved steel.

German hardness is usually around 56-58 hrc. Hard enough to hold an edge for a bit, but soft enough to not chip and easily steel/hone back into place.

The Victorinox Fibrox at about 55 hrc used to be suggested all the time when it was $20 and even when it was about $35. But now that it is $40-45, that's just too much for what is a very cheap knife.

A couple knives still in this range, which are better quality than the fibrox anyway are:

Kai 6720C Wasabi Black Chef's Knife, 8-Inch at 57-58 hrc for $32

https://www.amazon.com/Kai-6720C-Wasabi-Black-8-Inch/dp/B000YL4NY4


So this one is actually made with Japanese steel by the same company that makes Shun. But, because it's hardened to only 57-58 hrc, I'm lumping it in with the german steel category.

and The Henckels International Forged Synergy 8-inch Chef's Knife at about 57-58 hrc for $32

http://www.amazon.com/HENCKELS-INTERNATIONAL-Forged-Synergy-8-inch/dp/B000FMVS4A

Henckels International (not regular Henckels) used to be really bad because they made their knives to 53-55 hrc, which is way too soft to hold an edge to get through a cooking session without nearly constant honing. I've heard their international classics are still being made w/ the crappy steel.


So your choice between these two are having that big bolster (which I'm not a fan of) and general aesthetic.

Japanese hardness is usually at least 59 hrc, with a good chunk in the 60-62 range. This means potentially better, longer lasting cutting performance between honing/sharpening. The tradeoff is that it becomes more difficult to get to this stage without specialty tools or sending it to a professional sharpener. At this point I personally don't even consider knives under 59 hrc, unless it's something that really takes a beating.

For the cheapest price point, while still having quality. I would really only recommend the Tojiro DP at 60-61 hrc. It used to be about double the prices, but the grinds also used to be more even. Either way, it's still a great buy.

The chef/gyuto is $52 (now $62 hopefully it'll come back down soon)

http://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Gyutou-8-2-21cm/dp/B000UAPQGS/

And the Santoku is $43

http://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Santoku-6-7-17cm/dp/B000UAPQEA/

So the main difference here is whatever knife shape you prefer (and the price). I've gotten some cheaper harder steel knives, but I've had to do way too much touching up to be recommended.

There's also the Augymer 8" "Damascus" for $30 allegedly hardened to 62 hrc:

https://www.amazon.com/Augymer-Japanese-Professional-Stainless-Sharp-Damascus/dp/B01H6KWUWC/

I'd be really afraid of fit and finish problems, and generally lower tolerances throughout the process of making this knife. You can even see the uneven grind on the Amazon page. I'd also assume that the hardness is a tad lower than specified (maybe 60 hrc), but it should still be a pretty good knife if you want to pinch your pennies. This could be a great knife with some TLC, especially if you send it to someone who knows what they're doing.

https://www.amazon.com/Tojiro-DP-Santoku-6-7-17cm/dp/B000UAPQEA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479324283&sr=8-1&keywords=tojiro+dp+santoku

Free shipping too with prime

I don't know knives well, so take this with that in mind, but....I think I know what you are describing and I had a similar experience. I always preferred my German heavy chef's knives mostly due to the profile of the, uh, steel on the top of the blade. I mean, the heaviness and place to grab it, since I go in front of the handle and pinch it.

So, I had a couple nice Santoku, a wusthoff and a japanese light veggie type, and they were too light. I bought the Tojiro DP 6.5" to try another one, since I love the overall blade shape and prefer it to the German chef's I have.

As it turns out, the Tojiro DP are heavy, with that thick back and solid blade. I recently got rid of all of the others. So, maybe give it a try, and upgrade if that fits the bill. It's relatively inexpensive and a really nice tool in my opinion.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UAPQEA/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To add to this, I've never personally been a fan of a Western style blade, as I use more of a push cut. I much prefer the Santoku profile. A good value Japanese knife is the Tojiro DP 170mm Santoku.

if he is getting into his own cooking - no better gift than a quality knife. Tojiro makes a great one for the money ($47)

Working out - 35-45 lb Kettlebells are a versatile place to start a home gym

ahh shit. just saw filler gift. dont know if either fit the bill