Reddit reviews Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power

>I'm saying that it has it shortcomings, but it is effective and it's the best thing we have right now.

Well, I happen to think that it's not effective. The thousands of years of repression, war, and various and sundry atrocities perpetuated in the name of religion don't make it seem like a good thing. And my overall point is that if it's the best we have right now, that's because we haven't tried hard enough yet.

>Instead, I'm saying that we embrace the fact that the doctrine contains fiction and work with it.

Let me know when you've succeeded at convincing the religious people of the world that their religion isn't actually true, but serves as a useful moral guide, like Aesop's fables. Well, as long as you ignore all the bits that are morally reprehensible. Believe me, if you're going to help me convince people that their religious beliefs aren't true, I'm all for it.

>Religious precepts are fertile ground right now for clinical exploration of what contributes to human happiness.

So you're promoting the use of science to study human happiness? How in the world are you getting from this thesis, that we can explore the roots of human flourishing through empirical observation, to your conclusion that reason is bad at figuring out moral values? Believe me, I'm all for doing studies on what makes people happy. I just don't see any reason to tie it to ancient superstition. It has been tied to such things for a very long time, but that doesn't mean it should be. Sure, we can study religion scientifically. But that doesn't mean we should promote it as a solution to our problems; indeed, there have been people doing that for thousands of years, and they've caused a lot of our problems. See: The Middle East.

>Can you back it up with evidence? Can you show that religion has had an overall negative effect on morality?

As I noted above, see: The Middle East. And if you'd like me to start going through the holy books of the Abrahamic religions and pointing out the doctrines that they espouse which are blatantly contrary to the well-being of conscious creatures, I can do so but we'll be here a while. Did you want execution for imaginary crimes? Unnecessary slicing up of the genitals of children? The belief in the efficacy of at least one human sacrifice? Vicarious redemption? Submission of humans to an invisible being, and of women to men, leading to cultures in which millions of women are currently forced to live in cloth bags, and have battery acid thrown in their faces if they dare to try to learn to read? The entire issue of sexuality? I'd rather not wade through a bunch of raw sewage to pick up the gem of an ethic of reciprocity that gets expressed once or twice, when I can get the same or better from Epicurus and Lucretius.

>Can you find studies that show that religion has failed to promote the values that it claims?

Are you aware of the past 3000 years or so of history? I recall numerous religiously-inspired wars. But, if you insist on modern studies, here's one from Gregory S. Paul in which he compares rates of religiosity and societal dysfunction between 18 democratic nations in the developed world in order to "test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health." Paul finds that "in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction," demonstrating that widespread religious belief does not improve societal health, and that moreover there is a positive correlation between a first-world country's level of religiosity (e.g., the degree of confidence that a traditional monotheistic God exists) and level of social dysfunction (e.g., homicide rates). You can also check out the followup study on homicide rates from Gary F. Jensen, which finds that some dimensions of religiosity correlate with higher homicide rates, while others correlate with lower ones; it's not nearly as simple as "religion makes us more moral", or "religion makes us less moral". I can't find a direct link to the study, but Marc Hauser determined that atheists are just as ethical as religious people, so there's nothing special about religious ideologies that makes people behave more ethically. At best, there are factors that come into play when people are in groups, which is not specific to religion.

>While it is often cited that evangelicals divorce more often than atheists, if you factor in church attendance, the evidence I see points to church attendance stabilizing marriages.

Then you need to look, rather than at a study from 1997, to the 2008 data from the Barna group, which points out that you're completely wrong.

>Religion has also been clinically verified as one of the most effective treatments for alcoholism.

I see absolutely nothing in that abstract about religion. I see an analysis of Cognitive Behavioral Coping Skills Therapy, Motivational Enhancement Therapy and Twelve-Step Facilitation Therapy. And I see a result of "There was little difference in outcomes by type of treatment." The most you could be talking about would be the mention of "meaning-seeking", which again is far from being exclusive to religion. Alcoholism is a disease, one with an approximately 50% spontaneous remission rate. Every program with which I'm familiar has a success rate of about 50%. People simply attribute their success to the program that they happen to be in when they succeed; often, addicts will bounce between programs trying to find one that "works". If you're really interested in the topic, I recommend Marya Hornbacher's Waiting: A Non-Believer's Higher Power.

>I'm not saying we should stick with religion because we've done it for so long. I'm saying we should stick with it because science says that it works.

Well, since I think you haven't shown that, I'm going to have to continue to disagree.

You don't have to worry too much about the God part. I don't really know what I am, but I've worked the steps and been clean and sober for 32 years without worrying too much about finding the "right" higher power.

I've had some experiences that convince me that there is a creative power in the universe that the steps enable us to tap, but I don't think it is God as defined by most religions, although I'm open to their take on it being part of it (except for the obviously pathological sadistic gods). I think the word "God" is a metaphor; it's a shame that it's picked up all the negative associations throughout history from the actions of the psychopaths who claim they acted in his name.

I've been reading Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power, and it is very good.

I am currently six months in the program and I too struggle with the belief of a higher power because I am an atheist. However, I have found that putting my belief in the universe… Even just simply imagining giving all of this horrible pain and struggle and turmoil and anxiety up into space has brought me some great relief. I finally asked my home group, admitting my strain on this.... what to do as a non-believer.... and a woman in my group recommended this book to me. I have not yet read it myself but I have it queued up in my list to purchase very soon. I hear it’s really great so I thought I would share with you.

Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592858252/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_OuyOBbW9DV87A

Edit: fixed some words. Also PS.... i’ve grown an opinion to think that giving something to your higher power is just like the buddhist way of thinking to “let it go”. I hope this helps :)

Pema Chodron: When Things Fall Apart

Daniel Millman: Way of the Peaceful Warrior

Don Miguel Ruiz: Four Agreements

Maya Hornbacher : Waiting

Bill W.: 12 Secular Steps

You might check out the book Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power

I think one of the most important things my bf did for me during my various attempts to stop drinking was: he refused to be my gatekeeper. By that I mean he didn't try to make me stop or make me go, not even when I asked him to. He refused to be responsible for if I picked up a drink or not, and fielding that responsibility back to me so I had to "man up" and handle it on my own is something I look back on and really appreciate now. It could've had bad repercussions on our relationship if he had taken that role, but I was too caught up in the problem to realize that.

The other thing is just show support, show you care. Knowing you give a crap and are there for her is huge! My boyfriend bought me these books, because I'm an atheist but wanted to explore the usefulness of the 12 steps. The books are helpful, right, but it wasn't the books themselves that meant so much to me- it was that he was taking my goals seriously and trying to help. That meant the world. I didn't feel alone in the middle of a really daunting task.

Take care. Thank you for being supportive of your SO. =) And good luck to you too! This is a great sub for support!