Reddit reviews When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs
We found 18 Reddit comments about When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
Used Book in Good Condition
First, read through the sidebar and wiki on this sub and /r/Puppy101. You'll find most of the basic puppy/dog training information there, and I'll be happy to answer any residual questions you have.
I highly, highly recommend you pick up the book When Pigs Fly. It'll help both of you understand how independent dogs think and how to "get through to them."
The main thing to understand with independent dogs is that they need to see a beneficial reason to listen to you. If it won't benefit them, they won't do it.
You can train recall until you're blue in the face, but if coming back to you isn't more rewarding than chasing after squirrels, it's just not going to happen.
This is also why it's so important to avoid positive punishment. If you utilize things like prong collars, yelling, hitting, etc. the dog won't build a strong bond, and will be less likely to listen to you.
Think of a defiant teenager. You know they're going to test you, and if you resort to grounding them, taking their phone away, and taking away the car keys, they're not going to stop being defiant, they'll just become better at it.
"Dominant" is also a vague and misused term. Dogs do not try to dominate us, that theory has been debunked. Dogs with a "dominant personality" are often just very smart and strong willed. It takes patience and creative thinking to train, but it's not impossible by any means.
Just recognize that your dog is going to behave much differently than something like a Lab. A lab will often do well off leash, but your dog will likely never be allowed off leash in open environments. A lab might play fetch until he drops dead, while your dog might just want to run for miles and ignore you. Learn to pick and choose your battles, and don't set unrealistic expectations. Every breed was meant for different things, so don't aim for something yours wasn't bred to do.
Positive reinforcement works for "stubborn" breeds too. In fact, I'd argue that it's even more important for those breeds. If you get a biddable dog like a retriever or a shepherd, you have a lot of leeway to make mistakes. Those dogs will often put up with pushy people or strange customs and keep on wagging.
Shibas and other independent, stubborn types, on the other hand, really need motivational training. Training a shiba (or a sighthound, or a terrier, or any of the 'soft' independent thinkers) is kind of like training a cat. You have to provide them incentive to work--make training fun and let them use their brains to solve puzzles and you'll do great. Make training boring or unpleasant and they'll simply stonewall you, fight you every step of the way, and you won't make any progress.
When Pigs Fly! is a great book specifically about training 'difficult' dogs through positive means. There are other book recommendations and online resources linked in our wiki.
I'd recommend reading up and watching videos from some of the wiki sources before you bring your shiba home. I'd also recommend enrolling in positive reinforcement obedience classes soon after bringing him/her home, so you have a fun, safe place to practice with an instructor's help.
For more "in-depth" training, try clicker training with free shaping. Teaching new behaviors through free shaping works really well for the independent thinkers, because it's all about solving puzzles. It makes performing the correct behavior the dog's idea, which is good for opinionated dogs. Also try tricks training and sports like agility. The more you keep him/her working with you on an ongoing basis in ways he/she enjoys, solving puzzles and having fun, the better he/she will respond to you.
Honestly... there's a lot going on here. As you know, a trainer who can evaluate all of this in person would help a lot. Can you ask the shelter to see if they have any trainers on staff or partner trainers that can help you at a low cost?
Based on what you've said, your dog has separation anxiety, is reactive or outright dog aggressive, has prey drive issues, and is generally independent and stubborn.
Separation Anxiety: This guide covers the topic in a lot of depth. The Crate Games mentioned would help the crate training a lot, too. Here's the ASPCA's Weekend Crate Training guide. I'd start completely over with her crate training. Keep in mind that your dog probably has a negative association with the crate so it'll take longer than weekend.
Reactivity: /r/Dogtraining has a weekly Reactive Dog thread with a lot of resources to understand the problem and start working on it. If your dog is dog aggressive, the techniques are the same too. It's just of utmost importance to keep your dog from interacting with another dog. I own a reactive dog - a lot of my walks feel like a stealth game where I hide from other dogs.
Cats/Prey Drive: Honestly... this is the sort of thing you just manage for now. Keep them separated. Give the cats plenty of escapes like cat trees, pet gates, high shelves, etc.
Walking: I use an Easy Walk with my hard puller and it's like night and day. It helped a lot. The front clip harness turns the dog when they pull, so it reduces pulling. You can also try a Halti, but a lot of dogs really hate that without time to condition a positive response.
No Treats: This book is great for learning how to train a stubborn dog. But I'd say, start from the beginning and work on making treats fun and exciting for her. When I first got my dog, he barely ate food from a bowl, much less train for it. I did a few things to make interacting with me/food more fun. First, Finn only got his meals through training/interacting with me in some form. I kept training BASIC and treated him a lot. He walked near me? Kibble. He looked at me? YAY more kibble. He seemed to want to interact with me in any way? GREAT! Kibble party! Say his name and he looks at me? Wooo, shower of kibble. Keep your criteria for success low and build up to it. Getting a dog to drop something they value in exchange for a treat is a pretty high level concept. Make it so the dog feels like playing with you is always rewarding. I also didn't just hand him kibble to his mouth. I throw it in weird directions (helpful for prey/chase drive). I'd hide it and then release him to find it. I'd put it inside a box or something that he got to destroy. There are a lot of food games you can play to make food and yourself more interesting.
It's great that you're planning ahead and trying to do everything right.
> I intend to train my puppy since day one,
For information on puppy training, you'll want to check out /r/Puppy101. They've got stuff in the sidebar that you'll want to read.
>cesar millan philosophie on nose
You can skip the Cesar Millan stuff. He is a television star, not a dog expert. See our wiki page about Cesar for more info. You would rather get great information from well-qualified dog trainers. Our sidebar will lead you to some great stuff.
>What should I do? I don't want the perfect dog (submissive yeah, but not a lab), but I want to well train him, but keep him happy and me happy.
Start by reading everything in our sidebar - we put some great links there for you! Our wiki has lots more information on dog training. You might want to read a few of the books in our book list. Or follow the link to kikopup's videos (see sidebar) and watch her techniques.
>He will have at least 2 times a day intense exercise, 1 morning: he will walk with me (I fatten a little, stop running, now I'm picking the pace) 3.5 km (mountain type of track) and in the future run with me, in the same track, the 2 time on a large space where he can run free of leash, the rest is only pee on the tree, nothing fancy and play in the house. 1 or 2 times a week beach or some rustic mountain or new park for him to explore (and me).
Be careful not to do too much while your puppy is young. His joints can't take a lot of exercise while he is a baby.
>I think this will be enough to keep him soften, but the house training (housebreaking) is the thing that I am more afraid of
The Manners and Everyday Life section of our wiki includes a house training page. Start there.
> P.S. What's the name of that book that talks about training bull terriers? Well famous and I think that I saw it recommended here a lot of times.
You might be thinking of When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs by Jane Killon.
Hope this helps!
Yeah... scent hounds and border collies are kind of the exact opposite when it comes to training. Border collies are totally up for anything and everything because they love learning and are very biddable. Bred for generations to work with and listen closely to humans.
Hounds are...motivated by only what they enjoy. There's always going to be a "what's in it for me?" and that thing has to be better than the smell over there from 3 days ago.
That being said, the vast majority of hounds LOVE their food. So you should be able to find some kind of food they enjoy.
A book that may help you for learning how to deal with a less biddable dog is "When Pigs Fly, Training Success with Impossible Dogs" $8 for the e-book.
The author of that book mainly has bull terriers which are a notoriously stubborn and self centered breed.
Additionally, most police departments, AFAIK, don't use civilian dogs. If you're talking more about SAR, honestly it's already too late to really work with him to get to that point - not because 3 months is too old, but simply because you have very little experience. You really need to understand SAR in general before trying to bring in a dog, and having some sort of training experience with the sort of thing along with a training mentor is basically required.
However, if you just want to do that for fun, there is tracking and nosework competitions that would likely be a lot of fun for you to do with your pup!
> We had baby gates at the kitchen for a while, but they got in the way of humans. He will stay out of the kitchen while people are watching, but noy while we are at work.
Can you just put up the baby gate while everyone's out of the house? There are also gates that have swinging entrances for humans to pass through. We banned our grey from the kitchen early on, finding that management is the easiest and most effective method. I know it's hard getting the kids to on board, but it's well worth the effort. Being food-driven is a strong part of the breed (though of course there are exceptions), and it's easier to manage deep-set breed traits like that rather than trying to work against them.
If boredom is an issue, what can you do to help alleviate that? Toys, puzzle treats, and snuffle mats can all help a food-driven hound stay occupied. We love freezing kibble and other treats in our dog's Kong.
Greys typically do tend to be harder to train because of their independent nature, not intelligence. I love Jane Killion's When Pigs Fly: Training Success with Impossible Dogs, as it helped a bunch with ours. You may never get to the same training level as other, more biddable dogs, but you can make progress.
The most common way, at least in my experience (please chime in with other ways/paths that you've taken) is exposure and mentoring.
Exposure is just work with as many dogs as you possible can. For me, I worked at a dog daycare/boarding/training/grooming place as a dog handler (officially Animal Care Technician but whatever.) I thought I knew a lot about dogs before going in. My close family had had several growing up, I'd helped raise for service puppy organizations, etc. I did not. I did not know nearly enough about dogs in general. There's nothing like being in a playroom with 30 dogs every day to rapidly teach you about dog body language, communication, habits, warning signs, the works. I worked there for a couple years and I was constantly learning. The biggest hurdle in getting to be a dog trainer is just exposure to lots and lots of different dogs, different breeds, different temperaments, different learning styles, different stimulus, different everything.
Next usually comes mentoring with an experienced trainer. I lucked out in that the trainer who started working at the daycare facility about year after I did was awesome. Totally positive and we clicked. We became really good friends fast. I officially mentored with her for just over a year. I happened to be in the right place at the right time, and I can't really speak on more arduous methods of finding a mentor.
Read. Find groups like this one and find their recommended literature. Training is important both in theory and practice. My first books were Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out, Ahimsa, and When Pigs Fly and they were the beginning of my positive-only approach as well as my drive to become a trainer. But there are tons and tons of books to really dive into.
Check out the sidebar for info on APDT, and look into getting your CPDT-KA. The training industry isn't really regulated, but this is kind of The Certification.
As far as career, both myself and my training mentor left that facility. We started our own training business together. She works that full time, though her SO has a nice cushy job to fall back on in times of famine, so the two of them do alright. While I might do alright working it fulltime, I am crazy stupid anxious about being totally on commission. I have another full time job (night shift manufacturing. Cog-in-a-machine type work, but it isn't mentally taxing leaving me mostly focused mentally on training. Also benefits are awesome.)
While starting your own business isn't common or uncommon, there's other routes too. You can work in a big box store (think petsmart, petco, etc) as a trainer. Though you'll see on this sub we kind of have a hesitant view on them. It's either hit or miss. You end up with an awesome trainer who is working there on the path to bigger and better things, or.... you don't. You could work at a facility like the dog daycare place I worked. From my experience pay is meh but not terrible. The biggest problem was ideology differences and goal differences (what's best for the dog vs what's best for the business.) Though I tend to have a negative bias about it so take that with a grain of salt. You could work at a training facility that brings together a bunch of trainers. You could work at a humane society. There's a lot of options, some commission, some hourly, some a mix. It all kind of depends on your experience, your connections, and honestly, your luck.
This... kind of rambles on a bit, but feel free to ask away! A lot of my career came just from being in the right place at the right time so I realize that's not much help, but I can try.
Check out ”When pigs fly” it’s a book written about training bull terriers. https://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441
I agree with all of this, and want to add emphasis on the fact that this dog is a terrier mix. OP, terriers are notoriously difficult to train and independent... you will likely not ever be able to expect Golden Retriever levels of biddability and attention out of this dog, even if you dedicate enormous amounts of time to training him.
There is room for improvement, of course, but if you're hoping for complete obedience and reliability I'm afraid you may have made a less than ideal choice in breed.
Reading this book is a good place to start.
How old is this dog? How long was he in the shelter? Do you know what kind of a terrier mix he is (/would you be willing to share a photo to give us a better idea of breed mix)?
Okay so, I have tons of dog books to recommend. Obviously it isn't an apples to apples translation for horses, but they will help you get a solid understanding of clicker theory, and a lot of the exercises could be applied to horses, with some creative tweaking. You can usually find some inexpensive used options on Amazon that may make it more practical to buy these books, since with the exception of the Karen Pryor book they only cover dogs. If you have questions or want more recommendations let me know!
When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs https://www.amazon.com/dp/1929242441/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_41JXBbXWEPN78 This is a good basics of training books that will give you a solid introduction to actually applying clicker training.
Reaching the Animal Mind: Clicker Training and What It Teaches Us About All Animals https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743297776/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_J4JXBb9X374P5 This will get you really in the weeds on the theory and development of clicker training, plus a lot of examples of how Karen has used the methods. It is very readable, not dry and overly academic. I found it light on giving you step by step application instructions for a variety of situations though.
The Official Ahimsa Dog Training Manual: A Practical, Force-Free Guide to Problem Solving and Manners https://www.amazon.com/dp/1478176415/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_G6KXBb7XTZPB3 this one is another really good basics book. The author has another book called Behavior Adjustment Training that uses positive methods to deal with hyper-reactive and problem behavior. It might be a good one just so you can see some of the creative ways that they use positive training to overcome things like food aggression, fear of strangers, etc.
You could try using a front clip harness which will tend to turn the dog around when he pulls. I've heard that Canny Collars can be effective, but I've always worried my dog could hurt her neck if she sprinted for a squirrel while wearing one.
You might also need to try two different types of walks:
A few books that might be helpful:
You could also check around and see if there is a dog trainer nearby that could do an hour training / consultation session (We did this to learn tips to help with our dogs separation anxiety and I think it helped)
Ok, I had some things to do, I wanted to reply to this earlier...I love this stuff :D
I dunno if you're looking for a specific training (general obedience, agility, protection, etc.), so I'll include a bit of everything that's helped me or that is well-regarded.
For general understanding of dog behavior, I really, really intensely love Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash." It's not a workbook for obedience, it's more of a compilation of different techniques and why the author chose to move toward the training style she did. It's a little scathing at times. It's also relatively short (I think I finished it in a day or two), so as a general introduction, it works great.
If you have a puppy and are looking for puppy-specific knowledge, Ian Dunbar is the go-to name. There's lots and lots of Dunbar stuff out there, just plug his name in and go to town! Paul Owens' "The Puppy Whisperer" is also pretty good.
For general/pet obedience work, you really can't beat Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". Karen Pryor, a pioneer in clicker training (bridging the gap between marine/whale operant conditioning and dogs), also put out a great one, "Don't Shoot the Dog! The New Art of Teaching and Training". Really, anything by Karen Pryor is worth picking up if you're interested in the subject.
There are certain facets of dog body language and behavior that are pretty essential to know, and which are often neglected or incorrectly labelled in dominance-heavy learning (for instance, appeasement behaviors and fear aggression). A great start here is "On Talking Terms with Dogs" by Turid Rugaas, a Norwegian dog trainer and behaviorist.
Let's say you have a specific problem. Here are some good starts to overcoming common doggie fear issues: Patricia McConnell's "Cautious Canine and Ali Brown's "Scaredy Dog! Understanding and Rehabilitating Your Reactive Dog.. Patricia McConnell's "I'll be Home Soon" is great for separation anxiety, Terry Ryan's "The Bark Stops Here" for barking. One of my faves is Emma Parsons' "Healing the Aggressive Dog".
Finally, a book that I cannot stress enough in its awesomeness is Jane Killion's "When Pigs Fly! Training Success with Impossible Dogs". If you're stuck with a breed that was bred to work independently or you often feel that your dog is just plain ignoring you, this is a great thing to pull out.
If you're not so big on books and want videos, hop on youtube and look up kikopup! She's utterly brilliant and has a ton of videos to choose from. If you want to get more into that angle, look up the terms "shaping," "capturing," and "luring" - three different but related methods for encouraging dogs to do specific behaviors.
Finally, if you want to get down to the science of it and think more about wolves, L. David Mech is the name you want to watch for. And I have more sources on specific dogsports (gundog work, agility, etc.), but this post is already hideously long, so I'll leave it as is.
Hope that helps!
I highly recommend looking into training really intelligent dogs. My wife and I read When Pigs Fly which helped us really understand how our little pup worked.
1 Year old and while she's not perfect (she likes chewing on furniture when bored) she's the best dog I've ever had.
https://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441
Weird, your friend and I have a lot in common (I too am a dog trainer who has a few dogs and my biggest interest in the world is dog training with a love for agility). I want to be friends with your friend! Anyway some idea are
"multiuse or convertible" leash like 1 or 2
A fun tug toy like a rope w/ball on it or nice handled tug toy
A good Kong or two (original either red or black in the appropriate size for her dogs)
Good dog training books like The Dog Trainer's Resource or When Pigs Fly
A fun collar or two (am I the only one here who has 4+ collars for each dog and still wants more?)
If she likes hot drinks and you want to focus more on her funny/cute dog mugs are always good
Bumper stickers/magnets with her favorite breed or dog mom or a cute dog saying
Read this book.
Have you seen their bellies?
Also
Hi,
I have a leash reactive dog, some would recommend neutering and it can work, as long as you don't let the behaviour go on long enough that it becomes part of his personality. Personally, I'm not sure the evidence for behavioural alteration is rock solid, but if you're going to neuter anyway, it's worth a shot. Considering it started a few months ago, I'd say if you're going to get him snipped, do it soon.
Secondly, engage with a veterinary behaviourist. One that uses force free methods and is accredited. If you can't afford one, start with the book "BAT 2.0" or "When pigs fly!". In fact, while he's still entire start with those.
EDIT: added links and corrections.