Best christian social issue books according to redditors
We found 598 Reddit comments discussing the best christian social issue books. We ranked the 211 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
We found 598 Reddit comments discussing the best christian social issue books. We ranked the 211 resulting products by number of redditors who mentioned them. Here are the top 20.
This isn't true but it's how some libertarians approach the subject. For instance yesterday a guy I know said, "Poor people choose to be poor, this is America, nothing is stopping you from making something of yourself."
Sure some people are lazy, but not all of them are. We need to show a better job showing liberals how policies that are intended to help the poor end up hurting them, such as business licenses, professional licenses, minimum wage laws, ect.
Why can't a black women set up a hair braiding business in her own home, where she can multi task and babysit her own children? Because she doesn't have a business or beautician license? Because she didn't pay 3k to go to school for 2 years? Who the fuck cares. Government is making some poor people like this poor because of stupid barriers to entry that are intended to "help" people. And then when these people can't find employment they become dependent on government welfare; which destroys their self worth exponentially makes the problem worse.
Show liberals that government creates the very poverty its trying to prevent and show When Helping Hurts and libertarians will do a better job communicating that we do care about the poor.
Austen Hartke's Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians is a great resource for this question.
Alternativ auch das hier:
https://www.amazon.de/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
You chose the red pill, friend. Welcome. Now you get to see how deep the rabbit hole really goes.
Sounds like you need to read some Hitchens. I strongly recommend god is not great. He shared some of the same views you clearly have on religion - that it is inherently pernicious and disparaging.
Other problems: Was there a literal flood? A literal tower of babbel?
How about a literal exodus, a literal conquest of Canaan, and a literal grand Davidic Kingdom that built an amazing Solomon's temple?
Archeologists have found no evidence, and much counter-evidence, to all these claims. This is not a fringe position, it is the great majority, and even the greatest critic of the biblical minimalism position, William Dever, has recently changed his mind.
>"Originally I wrote to frustrate the Biblical minimalists; then I became one of them, more or less."
The "maximalist" camp is gone, the extreme minimalist camp(no truth before the 400AD) is dying, and the "centrist" position of some very biased basis in history starting about the 8th centry has pretty much won.
For more details on what we know because of archeology, there is no book better for the layman than The Bible Unearthed.
Is there a biblical hermeneutic that allows us to separate the true claims from the false claims? To my knowledge, and to the knowledge of greater scholars that I like Marcus Borg and John Spong, there is not.
If you're truly interested in the state of modern Christianity, I highly recommend Spongs Why Christianity Must Change or Die. It's a brief overview of some of the thousands of problems facing the fundamentalist belief.
For the Bible Tells Me So - a documentary introducing how the Bible has been completely misunderstood and misused to condemn LGBT people.
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality
Hate Thy Neighbor: How the Bible is Misused to Condemn Homosexuality
Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality
No. Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation summarizes my thoughts on religion.
Since then, he's become a concern troll.
Being new to the Reformed tradition, you should absolutely start Jamie Smith's excellent book Letters to a Young Calvinist: An Invitation to the Reformed Tradition. It's a quick easy read best digested in small parts. It does a great job of providing an overview of the Reformed tradition that is accessible, theological, and pastoral and is the best antidote to the "cage-stage" that I know of.
Other general books on the Reformed tradition I would recommend:
If you are looking for a topical treatment from a Reformed perspective I recommend:
Once you are ready to dive into heavier works consider:
Get this book for them, and read it yourself too. It was written by a Christian woman who went from being homophobic to accepting of LGBT people.
Intersex is key. When I read the chapter "The Myth of a Pink and Blue World" in Kathy Baldock's Walking the Bridgeless Canyon it cracked open a door in my brain that I didn't realize had been welded shut. God did not make them male and female; God made them male, female and thirty-one variations on what we call intersex.
Here's another good resource. Happy reading, all.
I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but have you ever heard of the sub /r/ExChristian? It's almost all text posts and discussion rather than the meme-y nonsense of /r/Atheism. It's people talking and grieving about their parents seeing them as souls to save rather than as people, or grieving the opportunities they lost as children (not being allowed to Trick or Treat because it's "Satanic" for example) and all of that.
Before RES bugged out on me, I had lots of LGBT users tagged with little pink tags, to make it feel less lonely here in the wide open internet, and that sub has pink tags sprinkled everywhere. You're secular, so you might find it an interesting read to hear from other children of controlling, narcissistic ministers. IDK how your SO identifies religiously, but she might find it interesting to click around. (ETA: it's not just atheists there, there are also people who are Buddhist, Taoist, Wiccan, Satanist, etc. but yes, it's all ExChristian).
Edit 2: The "emotional abuse" section of this book may also be very validating for your SO. It made me feel like I wasn't a burden, wasn't a bad kid, and wasn't complaining about nothing when I read it.
Here's a few to start with:
Debating Bible Verses on Homosexuality (New York Times Article)
Queer Theology (Website)
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships (Book)
The Time article Is Hell Dead? covers Rob Bell's book
Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. He's a pastor of a church that attracts 7,000 people every Sunday. He's also written Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality, Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile and Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith.
The description for Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile states:
>There is a church not too far from us that recently added a $25 million addition to their building. Our local newspaper ran a front-page story not too long ago about a study revealing that one in five people in our city lives in poverty. This is a book about those two numbers. Jesus Wants to save Christians is a book about faith and fear, wealth and war, poverty, power, safety, terror, Bibles, bombs, and homeland insecurity. It's about empty empires and the truth that everybody's a priest. It's about oppression, occupation, and what happens when Christians support, animate and participate in the very things Jesus came to set people free from. It's about what it means to be a part of the church of Jesus in a world where some people fly planes into buildings while others pick up groceries in Hummers.
Recommended: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens
Here is an intro from the author, he also reads the book on Audible,
Christopher Hitchens Explains Why Religion Poisons Everything
> I've had spiritual experiences I believe are from God, so in a way, yes.
but you've never met him. the answer is no
> I've never met President Obama. Should I believe he doesn't exist? That's your best evidence?
neither have I but others have and we can prove his existence. are you trolling?
> I'll agree with the ones other than Christianity that I've researched.
ah, so you are an atheists towards other gods.
> Can you provide what convinces you of this in regards to Christianity?
this is going to require some research and time which sadly I dont think you'll do. but here are a few. I could go on and on and on if you'd like.
this, this, this, this, this, this
I think that you need to protect yourself and your family, but consider this: If you can not be honest about yourself with them, what does that say about the relationship? They are poorer for not knowing your true self and giftedness, and you are unable to become the person that can express themselves most fully. Part of being human is being a partner in your own creation.
Not every congregation is in the same place, but perhaps you can help them along their path to Christ by having the faith to be open with them. I know you would be welcome in my congregation.
There are some books that may help both you and those you choose to share them with that I will mention here.
First, from the Presbyterian tradition is Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality, Revised and Expanded Edition: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church Paperback – April 14, 2009
by Jack Rogers .
Next, from the Mormon tradition is No More Goodbyes: Circling the Wagons around Our Gay Loved Ones Paperback – December 12, 2016 by Carol Lynn Pearson, an amazing woman, poet and artist I have the honor to know.
And finally, from my own tradition Touched by Grace: LGBT Stories in Community of Christ Paperback – February 1, 2012
by David Howard my late friend who I shared some San Francisco Pride celebrations with, and
Homosexual Saints: The Community of Christ Experience Paperback – January 21, 2008
by William D. Russell, my old friend and professor.
Some of these will be painful reading, but you will know that you are not alone and the end can be filled with joy.
Many of my friends/family members/acquaintances from my hometown are severely homophobic fore religious reasons. After responding to countless letters saying more or less the same things as your friend, I've started just copying and pasting the same answers, with minor changes depending on the circumstances. Here's the most recent version of my standard reply. Feel free to use any/all of it.
> [Friend's name] you might be interested to know that god does not, in fact, oppose gay marriage (or gay rights, or gay people in general). If you're interested in learning what god actually says (as opposed to what bigoted pastors say), I suggest reading "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by Dr. Daniel Helminiak (www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really-about-Homosexuality/dp/188636009X). If you don't have time to read an entire book, you could check out a much shorter article by Dr. Mona West, "The Bible and Homosexuality" found at http://mccchurch.org/download/theology/homosexuality/BibleandHomosexuality.pdf or any of the other articles hosted by the Metropolitan Community Church: http://mccchurch.org/resources/mcc-theologies/. These are written by biblical scholars (i.e. people who actually know what they're talking about) and their perspectives are incomparably more valuable than those provided by poorly trained ministers.
> If you prefer a movie to a book, you could try "One Nation under God" or "For the Bible Tells me So" both of which are available streaming on Netflix, or "Prayers for Bobby" which airs occasionally on the Lifetime channel and can probably be found at a local video store. Any one of them should be able to give you a much clearer understanding of god's opinion on LGBT issues.
> Lastly, if you want to skip reading or watching, and prefer to talk to a real person, try the ministers at [local LGBT friendly churches]. I can guarantee that they are better versed in biblical perspectives of LGBT issues than most of the rest of the churches in [my hometown], and I know they would be very happy to talk to you.
1a) Sodom Story: The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was in-hospitality. Jesus says so himself, Luke 10:8-12. Same applies to the Rape of the Levite's concubine in Judges 19.
1b) The Passages in Leviticus 18 and 20 are about the Hebrew Purity code, they are not talking about sin, but ritual purity to enter the holy of holies where God was with His people. It's about violating the "norm". No Pigs because they have split hooves, and hooved animals aren't supposed to have that. No Shell Fish because they are fish that don't have scales/gills. Things that are atypical are considered abnormal, and thus unideal, thus "abomination". But, That word doesn't mean sinful. Same with gay sex, it's a violation of the ideal of male-ness. Men Penetrate; they don't get penetrated. So those verses don't have anything to say to today's world, as when Jesus died the veil on the Holy of Holies was torn, granting everyone access.
1c) Romans 1: Is an argument about idolatry, not sexuality. He's using sexuality in this case as an example of the deviation from the norm, not as sin. The word unnatural here is actually applied to an action of God in Romans 11, so it doesn't mean sinful. This is Paul appealing to Jewish sensibilities to some extent, applying the logic from the Leviticus passage.
1d) Vice Lists: 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1. The word use 'arsenokoites' isn't used elsewhere. We don't know exactly what it means. But given it's context, we think it is talking about some kind of economic exploitation involving sex, not homosexual sex. So pimping for instance. Probably talking about the men who controlled the temple prostitutes and the men who used them.
1e) Jude 5-7: Says sex with angels is a no-no. The attempted rape in Sodom was of angels, not men.
Hope that was helpful.
Books:
Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality
What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality
Homosexuality and Christian Faith
fyi, I have a Masters in Biblical Studies and Theology from one of the top seminaries in the country/world. And I'm a gay Christian. You can be Faithful and gay. =)
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
Yeah, that’s a really tough situation. It’s really courageous that you came out to him, and you should be proud of that no matter what happens.
When I came out as gay to my parents, it took a really long time for them to process it — like years. They needed space. If they had tried to process it with me around, things probably would have blown up more often than it did (which is more than I wanted anyway...). I’m convinced that they’ve had pretty bad influences. My mom’s on staff at a Southern Baptist church, and my dad’s pretty conservative as well. They didn’t try to push anything on me though. An “agreed to disagree” situation has been the equilibrium state. While how they treat me is undoubtedly a function of what they believe, just getting used to things has improved how they treat me as well, despite no change in beliefs.
Have you looked at the resources in the FAQ here or over in /r/TransChristianity? I’m honestly unfamiliar with any resources designed specifically for parents. I just finished Austen Hartke’s Transforming, which I believe would be a great intro for Christians with limited or misguided opinions on trans issues.
Helping the poor is an incredibly, incredibly complex issue. At times, it is best for the church to step out of the way and let the people who are working for the places where resources are and who have training to be the source of help.
I was recently involved with a congregation who, seven nights a week, served a meal for the homeless out of their building. Good, right? This caused a HUGE number of (often unforseen) problems. The church was partnering with another organization, who was serving the meals out of the facilities.
When these meals were served at this location, obviously, the traffic from the homeless people increased. This changed the dynamics of the neighborhood, and people started to feel "less safe." Who is the church's neighbor in this case - the local business owner who has had a good relationship with the church for the last 15 years, or the homeless people? I would argue both. Yet helping one in this way ended up hurting the other.
While it's one thing to say, c'mon, they're just homeless people, get over it, the church had some legitimate safety concerns. There was a stabbing outside of the church by people who were associated with the free meal. There were people being panhandled in the church parking lot on the way in and out of meetings at night. It changed the environment for the church, and for midweek services, the church ended up hiring a security guard to ensure that the church was a safe place.
One prime example - in the middle of the day, two people were seen copulating outside in the church cemetary. Also, people using the bathroom on (not in) church premises.
When people started hearing that the church was thinking about discontinuing its partnership with the other organization and discontinuing using facilities for meals, people who were unfamiliar with the problems were wondering "why would we stop this? It's such an important part of the community?"
The list goes on. I 100% am with you that helping the poor is an incredibly important part of Christianity; however, it's not nearly as easy as most people think it is. If churches are slow to act, in a lot of ways it is most likely because it is not a simple thing to do. I would suggest reading When Helping Hurts. It's a really good book on the topic.
I don't think those exist, but if you just look at the leadership of the various ex-gay organizations over time, there are many ex-ex-gays. Some signed this letter, for instance. Quite a few are described in Walking the Bridgeless Canyon, each describing a weirdly dishonest world where everybody was supposed to tell outsiders that they were "cured" while knowing full well that they were all only "cured" in the sense "not currently having same-sex intercourse - well, not very often, at least, and not in any sort of long-term relationship, and I repent each time afterward"
If you would like to PM me and ask more questions, I'm always happy to help people who were where I was 4 years ago.
​
Here are a few good Affirming (A) resources to start out with:
Torn: Rescuing the Gospel from the Gays-VS-Christians Debate by Justin Lee (A)
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships by Matthew Vines (A)
Modern Kinship by David and Constantino Khalaf (A)
Blue Babies Pink by Brett Trapp / B.T. Harmann (A)
Bible, Gender, Sexuality: Reframing the Church's Debate on Same-Sex Relationships by James Brownson (A)
Sex and the Single Savior: Gender and Sexuality in Biblical Interpretation by Dale Martin (A)
Risking Grace, Loving Our Gay Family and Friends Like Jesus by Dave Jackson (A)
​
I'm compiling a list of other good resources / bad ones (from all perspectives, not just ones I disagree with), so let me know if you're looking for something more specific.
Believe it or not, the people who wrote the ELCA text are aware of everything you just wrote. It's not like we're just pretending that those things don't exist. There's a reason that the document specifies that there are multiple positions (including yours!) which an ELCA Lutheran can hold in good conscience.
Also, the lack of sacramental marriage in the Lutheran world is a very important thing that I don't want you to ignore. Until after Vatican 2, my marriage would have been invalid according to the Roman Catholic church. My own grandparents were unable to get married by the Catholics until they were re-married Catholic in the 1970s, since my grandmother was Protestant and would not convert. It's also awfully convenient that Roman Catholics suddenly discovered that Protestant marriage was "valid but imperfect" right around the time that there was a lot of invalid marriage between Catholics and Protestants in American and European society.
My recommended reading on the subject of gay relationships is actually God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines of the Gay Christian Network: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2/ ... He is an evangelical with a very high view of Scripture who engages with everything you've said and more.
I've read this guys book. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
its a good read. But it not hard to figure what choice xtianity is going to make.
God is not great by Christopher Hitchens. If you are looking for someone that had a sound knowledge of Christianity, its history and scripture, Hitchens is the man.
God is Not Great. How Religion Poisons Everything.
Christopher Hitchens.
> are there any books written from a Christian point of view that don't make us look like complete idiots even when read from an atheist point of view?
I cannot recall any of the top of my head.
>Also if you have any book recommendations that will help a Christian understand atheism then it'd be a appreciated.
God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens is the best introduction to atheism I've read.
God is not great: How religion poisons everything. Just look him up on Amazon
Thanks. The article was written by Christopher Hitchens, the author of God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. He was while alive one of my favorite people on the planet. His politics at the end were not as progressive as they had been for many decades, but his genius for taking down everything religious was imho, the best the world had ever seen in thousands of years. In fact I saw him in person at the Library, just down the street from the new Mormon buildings on Vine Street, not long before he died. I wept like a child when he was gone. My hero.
I went through almost the exact same thing. After leaving our main church, my wife and I stopped going all together. Several years later, after we moved because of jobs, we started going again. Needless to say, that didn't last long.
My wife and I both come from very strong Christian backgrounds; my wife's father was a Southern-Baptist minister for decades, and my dad went to Dallas Theological Seminary and taught church classes most of his life. So let's just say that leaving wasn't an easy thing.
However, my own search led me to realize the truth. Since my wife and I are very close, I talked with her about these things but was very careful about what I said. I'm still careful. I approach the discussions from the standpoint of "searching for answers" rather than declaring that I've already decided.
My mantra over the last few years has been "If it were possible to know the truth, and one of the possibilities was that God didn't exist, would you really want to know?" Well, my answer is yes. I don't want to be a blind-follower Christian. If God is real, then I want to know for sure!
I recommend approaching it like that. It let's your spouse see that you are truly searching for answers. The truth is all we really want, and we can't use a 3000 year-old book to do it. We need real answers, not mythology.
Be sure to talk about it a lot, and be open minded to your spouse's point of view. Let them know you still care for them deeply.
This sub-reddit has been so helpful and caring, so good job starting here. Also grab some books or find some web-sites that discus these things. Here are a few I recommend:
Sites
Books
Cheers
~Nate
I follow the words of the great Prophet Harris (Peace be upon Him). But I have great respect for followers of Dawkins, for they are people of the book.
Hey, Seth!
It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot, and what you’re feeling about it is entirely normal. I’m not surprised you’re exhausted and overwhelmed. Anyone would be. I’m glad your boyfriend has your back, and I hope he can find ways to support you even when you’re apart.
I’m not sure I’d use the word “accepting” to describe your mom, but yes, she could be worse. She and her boyfriend do not understand being transgender at all (like most people), and their views on your maleness are completely worthless. You’re a man. Period. Your life may have followed a different path than the rest of the boys, but that doesn’t invalidate who you are. Never forget that. It’s what keeps you going through all the hard times.
I could probably dig up more resources if you want them, but here’s two I’ll suggest right now.
This is a free pdf meant for parents and family that covers basic trans stuff. You might also look to see if there’s a PFLAG chapter in your area.
https://pflag.org/sites/default/files/Our%20Trans%20Loved%20Ones.pdf
Since you’re dealing with religious folks, this book might also be useful: Transforming: The Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians, by Austin Hartke. Hartke is a trans man, and his book is an excellent introduction to trans stuff and a debunking of common “biblical” arguments against being transgender.
https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100
Oh, and if you need something fun and like teen superhero fiction, April Daniel’s Dreadnought is a good read. It’s main character is a trans girl, unfortunately (from a trans guy perspective), but I found reading it very cathartic.
hugs
It’ll get better. The first few days are a shock and a whirlwind. It’s big and scary and unknown. It’s ok and normal to feel overwhelmed. But you’ve got this, and you’re a stronger man than you realize.
I’m always happy to talk, listen, swap stories, whatever, if it’ll help. PM anytime, and good luck, brother.
Can I suggest some reading? Wait, I'm a librarian of course I can.
Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless
Letter to a Christian Nation
Nonsense: Red Herrings, Straw Men and Sacred Cows: How We Abuse Logic in Our Everyday Language
Pay particular attention to the part about Straw Men in the last book.
If you really want to take a Biblical approach to homosexuality you can read this and be a little prepared.
That being said you're 16 and still under your parent's house and on their dime. I'd stick out the 2 years and wait till you were out on your own and secure before you tell them. It won't be easier it will mean you won't be subjected to some of the "pray the gay away" bullshit.
https://www.amazon.com/Christians-Get-Depressed-Too-People/dp/1601781008
The man who wrote this book came to our church for a conference on depression and anxiety. He is a great speaker and approaches depression from a spiritual and physical view. I hope this helps! Remember you are not alone.
What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, by Fr. Dan Helminiak Ph.D.
That's one place to start. It's well worth the eleven bucks, but the Amazon page also summarizes a few key points from the book for free.
The first moment, I remember was like my third day of greek class when my professor mentioned how the greek word translated homosexuality doesn't necessarily represent the concept writers, such as Paul, would have been conveying. He talked about a couple of the passages.
I read a book some time later by Mark Achtemeier called The Bible's Yes to Same Sex Marriage. He was a conservative theologian who used to travel around speaking against homosexuality. He had a pretty big change of heart, which gives me hope, and now he goes around speaking against what he used to do and advocating for those in same sex relationships and their full inclusion in the church. Another book, titled What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality is another book I recommend. It's pretty similar to the other book.
There is another book, I can't remember the name right now. But, it is a history of the concept of sexuality. It was based of Foucault's book on the subject. In short, they do a more expansive survey of the development of sexuality. Saying that homosexuality, as we understand it, is an 18th century development. So it would be difficult to maintain truly, that biblical writers would have been disapproving of same sex relationships as they exist today.
Lastly, there is a book called Struggling with Scripture. They write a book about wrestling with interpretation of scripture and use homosexuality as an application point. They kind of, in my mind, synthesize the material between the first three books I mentioned to think about how do we understand biblical texts in light of a changing culture. And give a good balance about how to see the scripture as authoritative texts but also how to think of them in our cultural context.
So, that's a small bit of what I have read. I've shown and told these arguments to many who have asked me. I know a number of people, mostly younger, who have had a similar change as I have. I've had many conversations where we are just talking past each other or who think I'm twisting the Bible. Those are always unfortunate.
You are created by God in his image and loved just the way you are. He created everything about you: your thoughts, your doubts, and your feelings on who you love. :)
This book really helped me when I was younger, and I highly recommend it.
I came from that background. In fact I think many who are conservative and gay have grown up in Christian / Catholic / Mormon households and it is familiar to us. We were rejected for being gay, christian, and conservative a triple whammy.
I'd suggest listening to youtube Gay Christian Network. Watch This Documentary. Tons of videos like this. There are several who do support the LGBT community and have their own churches. They just had a conference that was huge (once a year). I have backed away from it as they have become much to political for me with a liberal tint and Trump hate. But there is definitely Republicans and Democrats there. Checkout the other videos as well the full conference is online. IF you want a explanation of the bible and homosexuality Matthew Vine has a book. But Dr. Brownson is much deeper.
Many are wounded by their faith and the hatred they received the totally reject religion and become almost rebellious liberal SJWs. Some like myself become private about our faith (hell it's hard enough to find a conservative) and personal, often not the ultra religious types (It was another part of yourself that became closeted as some gays hate religion and conservative viewpoints). Some are super religious and from liberal accepting backgrounds (families) so I think it's easier for them in a way. I think there are many more liberal christian gays than conservatives. Because of separation of church and state some are closeted trump supporters. Peter Theil is conservative and Christian. Tony Campolo Pastor, Rob Bell mega church pastor famous for his Nooma videos, Jay baker son of Jim and Tammy (hes quite alternative), Hillsong Christian Singer Vicky Beeching, Singer Jennifer Knapp.
They say as generations go by, the younger generation grew up with Gay is ok and are much more accepting, many leave the church when they grow older.
{Documentary}_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImNx1JA3BI - Documentary on Being Gay and Christian (experiences)
{Deep Dive into Bible Verses - Theology}__
Matthew Vine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ZgSHK6tdA
Dr. James Brownson (Deep Dive Theology)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1f0KD-B0Z8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKOTNneoOpU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kONByDAXko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt-a0BiAEVs
{Videos}___
https://www.youtube.com/user/GayChristianNetwork - Videos why its ok to be gay and christian, Speakers Keynotes from Gay Christian Network Conference 1,500 Attendees
{Books}_
http://www.amazon.com/Torn-Rescuing-Gospel-Gays-vs-Christians-Debate/dp/1455514306 - Justin Lee (biography about being gay and christian)
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00F1W0RD2 - Matthew Vines
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Gender-Sexuality-Reframing-Relationships/dp/0802868630 - Dr. James Brownson (deep dive theology)
{Forum / Gay Christian Message Board}
http://www.gaychristian.net
{Find a Gay Affirming Church}____
http://www.gaychurch.org
Christianity and homosexuality are not in conflict. The idea that they are is a rather recent one, and is not universally accepted. Please read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426707633&sr=8-1&keywords=god+and+the+gay+christian
Being gay doesn't mean giving up your faith.
> how do Christians justify purchasing and owning extravagant possessions that go above and beyond utilitarian needs?
> Isn't Jesus clear with his teachings? Isn't it obvious that we should value helping others over helping ourselves?
Wow, what excellent questions! I will try to tackle these concisely but it's going to be very difficult.
Based on your question I'm going to define extravagant as "above and beyond utilitarian needs."
Now, the first question we should ask is "how low does utilitarian go?"
Sure I could downgrade from an iPhone 5 (ok, I don't actually have a 5, but if I did) to a 3GS. But when so much of the world lives on less than $1/day, if I don't need that 3GS for work, why shouldn't I downgrade to a free phone that comes with the cheapest contract, no data, almost no texting?
Sure I could downgrade from a 60" to a 40" because one meets The Jones' criterea for "extravagant" and another doesn't, but why not use a $20 monitor I found on craigslist? That extra $100 different between the monitor and the 40" could feed 100 people who live on $1/day, right??
Or you can downgrade from your Audi to a corolla, but if you're a single guy who lives close to where he works, why not downgrade to a bicycle? That's another $5,000 you can give. Why should you pat yourself on the back for not spending $20,000 on a used Audi when you still spent $5,000 on the Corolla? You only gave $15,000 instead of $20,000.
To someone living in Timor Leste, a $5,000 Corolla might seem be a fortune—worth several years wages.
So first of all, if we live in the first world, if you live in America and are even sort of middle class, even if you're poorer than everyone around you, we're quite rich. I know there's poverty in America, I've seen it and been in it (albeit very briefly). But we're still a fabulously wealthy nation, and setting an arbitrary point for "extravagant" is almost pointless because even low-middle class to poor in America is wealthy by the standards of many others.
However, I don't mean to be dismissive. I think your question is really good. I used a bike during my first year in DC. I didn't see a reason to own a car. I don't own a TV. But I do own an expensive laptop. Last spring I bought my first car. I wanted to mildly used (<100k miles), boring, toyota or honda. When I found a Honda with less than 70k for around 11,000 I almost bought it, then I found a little SAAB with 5k more miles for only 10,000. Test drove it, loved driving it, bought it. But a while after I bought it started to feel uneasy about it. See a Honda is practical, but a SAAB? That's a luxury car, right? I started thinking about how much I was giving from my paycheck—I wanted to give more. I started thinking about how much churches spend on building projects and wondered why they don't build crappier buildings and give away more. I started a conversation with a pastor back in my hometown and we started talking about radical generosity and I said 'I could go back to using my bike, if I could be a witness that Jesus is more valuable than money by giving away my car I think I'd be willing to do it. Do you know anyone in the church who really needs a vehicle and can't afford one right now?'
He gently turned the question aside, but said that he had seen church members get cars for others who needed them. When I asked him directly, "shouldn't we be impoverishing ourselves to give to the poor and be better witnesses?" his answer was fascinating.
He told me he's seen Christian churches overseas (specifically in India) supported by American ministries that have lost their dignity because all they can do to support themselves is ask for money from wealthier supporters. There is no point in asking their congregations to be sacrificially generous because the amount parishioners can give doesn't compare to what they can get from American ministries. And their congregations internalize the message that their generosity and their sacrifice is irrelevant because a wealthy American congregation overseas wants to play superhero and give lots of money to the poor people overseas.
Wow. I'd never thought of it that way. Incidentally, this has been studied in depth: http://whenhelpinghurts.org
http://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802457061
Isn't Jesus clear with his teachings?—you ask.
First of all, we should absolutely value helping others over helping ourselves.
But how did Jesus live, teach, and help?
When Jesus taught his disciples how to pray he taught them to pray for their "daily bread," not the leather cough or 60" TV. But Jesus didn't only eat bread, he enjoyed fish, he drank wine, he ate in the homes of the wealthy (like Zacchaeus, Luke 19 http://www.esvbible.org/Luke+19/) even allowed Mary to pour an expensive perfume (worth about a year's wages) on his feet. A tremendous extravagance. (John 12 http://www.esvbible.org/John+12/). In this instance, Jesus deflects Judas' question about not giving the money to the poor.
What does this teach about money? What does it teach that some of the most fabulously wealthy and powerful men in the old Testament were extremely Godly (Job, Joseph)? What does it teach us when Jesus lauds Zacchaeus for promising to give away much of his money in restitution for what he unfairly took?
Here is the thing: Money can do a lot to help people, but if the Bible is true it will never ultimately satisfy people's deepest longings. How can I sleep at night when I drive a SAAB and my Christian brother in Christ living in Etria drives a rusting moped? Because I believe that he is every bit as fulfilled and happy in his life because he knows Jesus as I am. I trust God will challenge him to be generous with his money in the context of his community, and abroad as God enables him. I ask God to give me a generous heart too. When it comes to giving, the Bible is not hard and fast on 10% giving in the New Testament. I try to give more than that (and have been consistent in that so far, as far as my math skills tell me).
In general, I try to follow a principle CS Lewis wrote about: "I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. In other words, if our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc, is up to the standard common among those with the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them."
But here's the thing, it's awfully hard to judge other people arbitrarily if we follow this standard. For a billionaire philanthropist like Bill Gates, living in a $1M home and owning only 1 car (even if it is a top-of-the-line 2013 Mercedes) would be incredibly modest given his means. It would almost certainly not be modest for a doctor who makes $150,000 per year to live this way.
But God calls the doctor, the grocery clerk, and the billionaire to generosity. Their standards of living will be different, and Bill Gates would not be a "hypocritical cunt" (the words of someone below) for having a home theater if he happened to convert to Christianity.
After all, doesn't Paul quote Jesus as saying "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (emphasis mine)? (http://www.esvbible.org/Acts+20%3A35/)
So being generous is an even bigger blessing than keeping money to yourself? Wait, do only the rich people get that blessing? Does God discriminate based on our standard of living? No! Every Christian is called to generosity. One day maybe that will mean giving away my car. For now, while I don't feel called to do that I thank God for the gift of a nice car and try to be generous enough with my paycheck that I don't feel "safe." And I'll say this, the Bible's word has held true. It is an absolute joy to practice generosity.
TL;DR:
1. The Bible doesn't universally call all Christians to absolute poverty and completely utilitarian living.
2. The Bible does call all Christians to practice sacrificial generosity (and with wisdom, so that we don't tempt others to forfeit their dignity or self-reliance in the long run)
3. Not because money is evil, but because valuing money above Jesus is evil and hypocritical, and generosity to others reflects (in a small way) how God has been generous towards us.
4. Experiencing the spiritual blessing of being generous is open to all believers, regardless of how much material wealth God has blessed you with.
5. If I have seemed wishy-washy, I want to say that this is not completely arbitrary. We are not in a position to judge everyone, but sometime we see hypocrisy or are hypocrites ourselves. Ultimately, the way we use our money should reflect the fact that knowing Jesus is our highest treasure. If the way I use my money shows that to the world, and I follows God's commands to be generous (http://www.esvbible.org/1+Timothy+6%3A18/, http://www.esvbible.org/Ephesians+4%3A28/) then I'm doing what God asks of me with respect to money. It's helpful to remember that I couldn't satisfy everyone even if I had an infinite amount of money to give away, because it's not owning money, but rather knowing Jesus that makes life full—"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." -Matthew 6:19
edited because I'm new to reddit and don't know how to format.
I came to atheism late in life. It was a strange thing for me, there was no story to tell like there is for those who suddenly find Jesus. I just woke up one morning and realized that not only did I not believe in God, I hadn't believed in quite some time. I always explain it like having a beach house and every year the ocean washes a little of the beach away. One day, you wake up, go out on the porch and realize there's no longer a beach -- the water is lapping at your back deck. When did the beach cease to exist? It's hard to say, even if you went and looked at the beach every morning, which you probably didn't. You just know there isn't a beach anymore and it's time for new plans.
Since I came to it so late in life, I got to look it from a much more adult perspective and got to really understand it. Hopefully, I can help you understand your son.
That said, we're kind of all over the place. Some of us kind of disbelieve a little, like my girlfriend. She really wants to believe there's a God of some sort, and she tries continually to find evidence. I'm a little more strong in my atheism, I don't believe there's a God and I've stopped looking for Him. I'd be perfectly happy with a God worth worshipping, but I'm living my life as if there is no God. Others are more militant, and some are out to convert others. But there's no universal string that ties us together other than our lack of belief. We're as different as any other general subset of the population. You might as well ask what people who like Chinese food believe in.
Because of that, you're not going to find the Tabula Rasa you're seeking. It doesn't exist. We don't have a holy book. We don't even have real tribal leaders. I can recommend some reading, though. I highly recommend Richard Dawkins as a primer, and in particular, I found The God Delusion to be really helpful in understanding my atheism. Before that, I was really uncomfortable with the label "atheist" and preferred the less loaded term of agnostic. However, after reading that book, I found that atheist really was accurate and it didn't have to mean "complete and absolute knowledge of the non-existance of God" or even "I hate religion".
Dawkins doesn't suffer fools lightly and he can be sharp at times, but he generally wants people to understand and is trying to talk to all audiences, not just the already converted. Authors like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris can be fun to read for someone who has already acknowledged their atheism, but they are preaching to the choir and their books pull no punches. They aren't going to convert anyone. I highly suggest staying away unless you want to be angry.
However, there are some of us that are legitimately upset and angry. Many of us lose family members over our atheism. My mother has disowned me because of it, and that's not uncommon. All of us lose friends over it. Some of us lose jobs or won't be promoted because we're perceived as not moral. A friend of mine has told me that while he likes my company, he could never hire or work for an atheist because he doesn't trust them. For all the talk of religious persecution, try walking around just one day as a vocally out atheist. There's a reason why the majority of us are silent and only talk openly about it in safe places such as this.
Your son is probably looking up anti-religious articles and books and such because it's the easiest way for him to find confirmation of his disbelief. A lot of the anti-religious stuff he's posting is probably helping him understand why he stopped believing the way he did. Understand that he may be going through a period where he hates religion, but it's not that he's anti-God. It's very difficult to be against something you don't believe in, and this includes the devil. He may well be anti-religion and that may or may not pass. Atheists often find that religion seems to do a lot of evil in the world (terrorism, hateful laws, justification for immoral acts such as slavery) and that can be painful to witness.
If it's any consolation, I find myself fascinated by religious objects and I tend to collect them. My bookshelf is filled with religious texts and I have many representations of religious beings in my apartment. I find it incredibly interesting the power that someone can ascribe to a mere object or idea.
If anything, I feel more moral and more obligated to be moral now that I'm an atheist. I know that sounds odd, but please hear me out. I feel this is the only life I get. This is the only life you get, and the world as it is today is the only world we get to experience. Because there is no better place, I want to make sure I leave this world better than I found it. I want to leave you with a life that is as good as it could have been while still living a life that is equally good for me. I suspect your son feels the same way, because moral people are moral without religion.
I know you want to reach your son and teach him good values and good morals and how to make good decisions, and quite frankly, it is your obligation to do so. However, you will have a harder task because you can no longer argue from authority. You're right that you can't say, "do this because God says so." It won't matter to him any more than "do this because Santa will love you" would matter to you. No one could point to Christmas stories or point out that bad kids get coal because you don't believe and you've seen plenty of bad kids who didn't get coal at all. Instead, you'll have to make logical arguments about why things are bad. For instance, you don't want him to have sex. That's probably unrealistic, because studies show that kids have sex whether they are religious or not. We are simply built to have sex when we hit adolescence and our bodies compel us to do it. Abstinence worked fine when we all got married at 15, but it works much less so now that we're waiting until our late 20's. Instead, explain that people can legitimately be hurt by sex when its done for amoral reasons. Explain that at his age, he doesn't have the experience to understand the complex feelings and emotions that go into it. He probably won't understand that, so you'll also have to council him that if he is going to do it, here are many ways to do it safely so that he doesn't end up with a kid. Explain that having a child at a very young age requires tremendous sacrifice and is emotionally and financially difficult. Doing it when you are not prepared likely means that many of his dreams will be unachieveable.
Of course, this doesn't help you if you think premarital sex is sinful. He is going to have a different idea about that and there's not a good logical argument that can be made. However, you can make sure that his decision to have sex doesn't result in terrible consequences. That's kind of how you'll have to frame everything from now on.
I think that this will give you a basic overview better than I ever could
For further reading (if your honestly interested) I'd suggest:
Perhaps it's time to move away from LDS specific arguments, and start questioning the God concept in general; especially as it relates to morality.
One argument I've always liked, is that even if there is a god, by far the strongest test of morality it could ask for is if a person will be moral while believing there is no such being, and no promise of reward or punishment.
If she is willing to read, I recommend the following:
YouTube is also a fantastic resource. Here are some of the video series that I found particularly convincing as I was going through my own transition:
I think it's also important to remember that there is are alternative worldviews out there which are not based on religion, which are just as rewarding and fulfilling, if not more so. Here are a few videos that have sparked that sense of wonder and that I used to associate with the spirit. Most of these are not direct attacks on religion, but rather are just inspiring ideas from a secular\scientific worldview. I recognize that these may not have universal appeal, but they spoke to me, and may do so for you and your wife as well:
You've heard everything that the religious have to say. And, like most Christians, you've heard the critics being grossly misrepresented through apologetics.
I suggest that you start to study what the critics of Christianity have to say in their own words.
Here's a few to get you started:
As they say, knowledge is power. Understanding why Christianity is wrong will help greatly with purging it from your mind.
On science and evolution:
Genetics is where it's at. There is a ton of good fossil evidence, but genetics actually proves it on paper. Most books you can get through your local library (even by interlibrary loan) so you don't have to shell out for them just to read them.
Books:
The Making of the Fittest outlines many new forensic proofs of evolution. Fossil genes are an important aspect... they prove common ancestry. Did you know that humans have the gene for Vitamin C synthesis? (which would allow us to synthesize Vitamin C from our food instead of having to ingest it directly from fruit?) Many mammals have the same gene, but through a mutation, we lost the functionality, but it still hangs around.
Deep Ancestry proves the "out of Africa" hypothesis of human origins. It's no longer even a debate. MtDNA and Y-Chromosome DNA can be traced back directly to where our species began.
To give more rounded arguments, Hitchens can't be beat: God Is Not Great and The Portable Atheist (which is an overview of the best atheist writings in history, and one which I cannot recommend highly enough). Also, Dawkin's book The Greatest Show on Earth is a good overview of evolution.
General science: Stephen Hawking's books The Grand Design and A Briefer History of Time are excellent for laying the groundwork from Newtonian physics to Einstein's relativity through to the modern discovery of Quantum Mechanics.
Bertrand Russell and Thomas Paine are also excellent sources for philosophical, humanist, atheist thought; but they are included in the aforementioned Portable Atheist... but I have read much of their writings otherwise, and they are very good.
Also a subscription to a good peer-reviewed journal such as Nature is awesome, but can be expensive and very in depth.
Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate is also an excellent look at the human mind and genetics. To understand how the mind works, is almost your most important tool. If you know why people say the horrible things they do, you can see their words for what they are... you can see past what they say and see the mechanisms behind the words.
I've also been studying Zen for about a year. It's non-theistic and classed as "eastern philosophy". The Way of Zen kept me from losing my mind after deconverting and then struggling with the thought of a purposeless life and no future. I found it absolutely necessary to root out the remainder of the harmful indoctrination that still existed in my mind; and finally allowed me to see reality as it is instead of overlaying an ideology or worldview on everything.
Also, learn about the universe. Astronomy has been a useful tool for me. I can point my telescope at a galaxy that is more than 20 million light years away and say to someone, "See that galaxy? It took over 20 million years for the light from that galaxy to reach your eye." Creationists scoff at millions of years and say that it's a fantasy; but the universe provides real proof of "deep time" you can see with your own eyes.
Videos:
I recommend books first, because they are the best way to learn, but there are also very good video series out there.
BestofScience has an amazing series on evolution.
AronRa's Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism is awesome.
Thunderfoot's Why do people laugh at creationists is good.
Atheistcoffee's Why I am no longer a creationist is also good.
Also check out TheraminTrees for more on the psychology of religion; Potholer54 on The Big Bang to Us Made Easy; and Evid3nc3's series on deconversion.
Also check out the Evolution Documentary Youtube Channel for some of the world's best documentary series on evolution and science.
I'm sure I've overlooked something here... but that's some stuff off the top of my head. If you have any questions about anything, or just need to talk, send me a message!
Check out Austen Hartke and his YouTube videos, as well as his book “Transforming.” (https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100)
I’m in the same boat as you and its helped me somewhat reconcile it—if you need to talk about it, I’m available though I’m kind of still an egg maybe?
There are projections that show that, at the rate priests are aging and retiring, and at the rate fewer and fewer people are joining the priesthood, there will be only 1000 priests active in France in 20 years.
So in other words, in at least one Western country, the number of priests, masses offered, parishes able to remain active, ect, will be reduced by about 90%. For a sense of what that is like, just imagine, if 90% of priests in your state disappeared tomorrow, or if 9 out of ten Catholic Churches near you closed.
And this is in 20 years. To put that in perspective, 20 years ago from the present was 1998.
So yeah, the Church is pretty screwed. I think our only real option is to retreat, regroup, and focus on the fundmentals of the faith. Eventually, the time to reevangalize society will come but that's many decades, maybe a century away. Basically, that's our children's job. Our job is to preserve as much of the Church as we can and rebuild her to weather the coming storm.
Red Letter Christianity by Shane Claiborne and Tony Campolo, Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne, The Kingdom of God Is Within You by Leo Tolstoy and The Long Loneliness by Dorothy Day
To /u/Catholic_Dad: As another gay catholic man, this is really a fantastic response that hits all the important points. I came here to make my own post summarizing it all, but /u/fulltimeguy really hit the nail on the head.
If you want some other resources to share with your son or to look at yourself, here's the list that I often send to people facing this issue (some of these aren't specifically Catholic, but are Christian and hold to the conservative sexual ethic):
Also, as another user posted, Fr. Martin's Building a Bridge has some pretty good points on how to start having conversations about this. I particularly recommend this one for you to read, though not necessarily your son at this point.
Edit: You could also check out EnCourage, which is a catholic group for parents/family of lgbt people. It's a companion program to Courage, which is for the lgbt people, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend Courage for your son at this point - it's really more oriented towards adults, especially those who have lived/are living a sexually active life with members of the same sex.
back in the loveline days, and pre 9-11, he was pretty vocal about the Christian right, especially as it pertained to the morning after pill / abortion debate. he once said something on this podcast about the different types of atheists there are, to summarize 'An atheist like me doesn't believe in anything, an atheist like Penn Gilette HATES GOD.' which i find funny, but also accurate. there are types out there that rage against theism, what Christopher Hitchens called anti-theists in his book God is Not Great.
aceman is just a guy who was raised with no religion and reason to buy into one or create one, he's just a man looking out for what's pragmatic.
Hitchen's book God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything would give a good overview. Here he is speaking about this question.
Christopher Hitchens, in his book God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, devotes a short chapter to pigs. It's a cogent bit of prose.
Oh look, here's a reading of that chapter.
> Words to live by.
Or to write about even.
Here's mine:
The War that came Early by Harry Turtledove
The Hot War by Harry Turtledove
The God Delusions by Richard Dawkins
god is not GREAT by Christopher Hitchens
Death by Blackhole by Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Used by God Sorry OP
Buy this to your mother, and watch yourself get kicked of your house :P
Congratulations! I know what a big step that is, as I've been in the same boat. Books are the best way to become informed. Check out books by:
Also check out the video series Why I am no longer a creationist.
The more you know, the more confident you will be.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
I'd suggest God is Not Great to really get under their skin. While they may not get past the title, there are some very eloquent arguments in there that don't stem from a scientific viewpoint.
Believing in the sky fairy is for those who do not want to think for themselves and need an imaginary friend who always listens to them. Organized religion has caused so much pain in the world and hopefully eventually society can move past it
God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Recommended reading material:
God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
The End of Faith
If Christians were closeted, if they kept their morality judgments to themselves, if they did not push for laws to enforce this version of morality, if they did not actively seek to disparage atheists for no other reason than for refusing to believe in the invisible thing in the sky that they believe in, then I'd have no reason to give a shit about what Christians believe. What does or does not happen to my consciousness after I die is absolutely immaterial.
https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100
I have heard this is well written. But honestly I feel your pain. Sorry for what your going through. It sucks sometimes.
Hands down the best book on Poverty Alleviation is "When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself" https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802409989/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ENCPDb8XM4AQ4
It is LIFE CHANGING
You sound like you have some serious cognitive dissonance going on right now.
Talking about it with the Internet is a great first step. It shows that you're looking for help and want to make a change. But /r/askgaybros is not going to be enough all by itself. You need to do some serious thinking and evaluate your three options for ending the dissonance: (1) to prioritize God over your own happiness, (2) to prioritize happiness over religious dogma, (3) to change your conception of God and/or your own gay identity so that they are no longer in conflict.
This will not be easy. None of those options will feel "authentic" or "right" at first. (1), in particular, has serious shortcomings and will probably endanger your long-term mental health. (2) is slightly less dangerous but will be very, very hard in the short term.
My advice: pursue (3) for now. Talk to a gay-affirming Christian therapist. Talk to your "this guy" with whom you're falling in love. Talk to your parents. And then listen. Notice how all of these people still love you and think you're valuable and loveable and a good person.
If you want a more Bible-based approach to (3), pick up one of the many, many books out there about homosexuality and the Bible. (I bought this one, about 4 years after when I most needed it.)
And of course, if you fail to find a way to let yourself be happy by pursuing (3), pick a point at which you'll cut your losses and choose (2).
Hey! Hope you are having a good day!
Here are a few resources specifically on same sex relationships that have helped me in my journey...
Internet articles:
https://www.livingout.org/what-s-wrong-with-a-permanent-faithful-stable-same-sex-sexual-relationship
https://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-idol-behind-same-sex-desires
https://www.google.com/amp/s/torreygazette.com/blog/2015/10/26/on-my-struggle-with-homosexuality%3fformat=amp
Book and website:
I respect Sam and the path that he walks. He also has a big heart, this book that he wrote helped me greatly...so did the site livingout.com...
https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3BRI5F09H4J8N&amp;keywords=is+god+anti-gay+by+sam+allberry&amp;qid=1557255221&amp;s=gateway&amp;sprefix=is+god%2Caps%2C158&amp;sr=8-1
And what also has helped me is learning how God created women...my mind was twisted with misunderstood scriptures and opinions from others...also, the church and the world stereotype gender so terribly, realizing this has helped me and I had too do some deep soul searching and ask myself some hard questions.
Good luck to you, please feel free to ask questions if you have any. Walking through this can feel lonely, it's good to have someone who is safe to bounce thoughts, ideas and feelings off of. 😉 May you have a great rest of the week!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
Both explain it completely.
Like yourself, I am an ally. I, too, found it to be a huge weight in my attempt to "be a good Christian" and also recognize that homosexuality is not a sin. I'm a feminist as well, but because I haven't done my Bible research yet regarding feminism, I'm going to keep to my own experience with homosexuality and the like.
From my own my own experiences, I feel that you have two major options in order to reconcile your faith and your convictions - two options in which God will support you and guide you in whatever you choose.
The first might be to find another church, another denomination, or both. Some churches still oppose homosexuality, but are much less aggressive, meaning that you get the occasional "homosexuality is a sin," but who are much more respectful of it. This is the type of church I attend. And while their stance is annoying, they actually manage to discuss it in a loving manner so that I can tolerate it. There are also churches who are completely open to the LGBT community. Times are changing, albeit slowly.
Your second option, and probably the most terrifying one, would be to "come out" to your community. One of the problems (IMO) with the "homosexuality is a sin" stance is that they don't know any better! Some people have lived in this bubble all their life. They don't know any differently, and haven't heard the Biblically sound evidence that it isn't wrong. You don't have to start protesting sermons or get a soapbox. But it could start with "I don't agree with that, can we please stop talking about it?" A simple phrase like this almost sounds like you aren't helping by not talking about it, but it can begin to open their hearts and minds to the idea of questions and discussion. In this scenario, knowledge is power; I've suggested this book before, and I'll suggest it again. By knowing and confirming your own beliefs on a very fundamental and Biblical level, I think it will help you navigate any discussion regarding the LGBT community and their place in the church.
I know you submitted this post about a month ago, but I might as well give you some advice, since I went through something very similar at the start of my college years.
I suggest acquiring some good reading material and passing these books around your family to help them better understand your perspective and same-sex relationships in general. The book that I appreciated reading the most at the time of my coming out was What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality by Daniel Helminiak. It helped my entire family understand what I was going through, and it cleared up a few misconceptions that they had about the gay "lifestyle."
There are a plethora of other books out there if that one doesn't do the trick. I hope you find peace of mind and spirit. God Bless.
CCEF have some good materials, I've certainly been blessed by them.
But I would be neglectful to not disagree with them on their use of medications. For that, I would advise not reading them and instead reading Real Christians Get Depressed, Too by David P. Murray.
Even modern CCEF, who are better than Dr. Adams on this aspect of counseling, still falls very short on integrating physiological factors in mental illness. They have no interest in studying chemical imbalances, inflammation, etc and their impacts on depression.
When I initially came out, I was religious (Lutheran), and I actually came out with the help of my campus pastor in our Lutheran Student Community. I continued active participation in my religious community, and most of my pastors after that time were aware of my identity, so don't ever feel as if there's no place for you in religious communities. In the US, at least, mainline protestant denominations (Lutheran, Anglican/Episocopal, Presbyterian, UCC) often tend to be much more accepting than so-called "nondenominational" or Evangelical churches, but there aren't hard and fast guarantees.
(Just as full disclosure, I'm no longer religious, but it has nothing to do with my coming out, and much more to do with other philosophical changes and ideas.)
There has been a lot of good advice in this thread, so I really don't feel the need to repeat it. I do, however, want to share few resources that might be helpful:
In your situation, I understand it may be hard to get these books or read them, but if you can do so privately and safely, I'd highly recommend them as avenues for exploring your identity and giving you a theological and philosophical frame to think about your identity from. I'm not sure if you're worried about disapproval or punishment from divine or human sources when you say, "I'm afraid my own religion will punish me for something that I can't control," but in either case, you may find these helpful.
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality is a great book, but it may put her on the defensive too quickly to really read it. It can be a good second book if you are doing a continuous swap, however.
I don't have any specific advice. It's more general. I've been reading a book called "When Helping Hurts". It goes into detail about specific types of poverty, such as spiritual, emotional, spiritual (I'm not sure if those are the specific names, but it's a similar idea), and how to help each type of poverty. It makes some interesting points, like the fact that people in America view poverty as mostly material poverty, since Americans are very material minded, when this is not always the proper way to approach all situations. I 100% recommend it. Here's the link to it on Amazon:
www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802457061/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Read "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" and, if you're still inclined, you can happily be an openly gay Christian. I was for many years (before coming to, umm, additional conclusions).
In a nutshell, the translations (other than Leviticus) don't really support the anti-gay sentiments that have been attributed them in the last century. In fact, they are more closely associated with idolatry than sexual sins (i.e., local priests were hiring male prostitutes to assist them in sacrificing seed into bonfires for the Fire God, Molech...that kind of thing).
And if Sodom was all gay, why did Lot offer his daughters to the crowd to rape? Because the crowd wasn't entirely male. The Hebrew word for crowd changes to a masculine declension when a single man is present. Plus Christ supposedly even said, "The sin of Sodom was inhospitality." Inhospitality was the code of the desert, when life was so awful that if you weren't kind to a wandering stranger, you were a terrible person worthy of severe punishment. Turns out "sodomy" is a sincere misnomer and really doesn't even just mean "anal sex" in a legal sense, which should be telling (but noooooooo...).
UPDATE: Even Leviticus has to be reviewed in the context of keeping the tribe of Israelites procreating. Human sexuality was viewed as a mechanism, not as an innate construct. Freud and sexual psychology/physiology were hardly understandable at the time.
TL;DR: you CAN cling to your Christian beliefs and be gay. It's the idiots who cling to what their idiot pastors tell them is the word of God who are in the wrong. FYI: I'm an atheist now and unable to "backslide," as they say.
That's a lot to tackle, but off the top of my head:
b. Most atheists wouldn't say that the evidence shows that no god exists, rather only that they see insufficient evidence of his existence.
c. I'm not sure what "simple logic and reasoning" you're referring to. Again, most Christians would view logic and reason as absolutely consistent with and foundational to their faith.
d. Deferring to a 'god of the gaps' argument is almost always a bad idea.
Hm, if either of you have health insurance, they usually pay for at least part of a gym membership (and other ways for you to get and stay healthy because it means they have to pay less later for chronic issues).
I just want to say now that God has not abandoned you, and just because other people are using him as a facade does not mean he is evil, uncaring, or vengeful in anyway.
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (A bit of preaching, sorry: You are worth the ultimate sacrifice to God, he loves you and it is not a burden too great for him to adopt you; he wants you to come to him.
Also, as an aside, I have a friend who went through a similar situation as you, and I can tell you that as long as you work on it, it will get better).
David Murray's Christians Get Depressed Too is a good, tiny book (as well as Refresh and Reset) on actual (read: biblical and biblically sound) Christian approaches to depression and mental illnesses. Which is awesome because a lot of other 'Christians' brush off these topics and victum blame, insted of do our God-given best to comfort the afflicted. I mean, I left the church for over 7 years partly because I was depressed and ostracized by my peers in the congregation.
My pastor is also doing a few studies on mental health care in the church and how to help yourself. Just message me if you want a link to our church's website, all the audio recordings are free (I would link here but it's pretty identifying as there's only like 100 or so people at my church lol). Same offer to anyone else who reads this comment :)
Feel free to message me too for any reason, even if you just need to vent, and always be wary of denominations that try to add or subtract anything from the bible (including rules involving conduct, drinking, social interactions, etc etc. Mormons, Jahovah Witnesses and many other sects tend to do this..)
Would you be singing the same tune if, instead of a bible in every hotel, there was a Koran or A Letter to a Christian Nation? Would you still be calling for respect?
I obviously know the Bible well, and while I am a Christian, meaning that I follow the teachings of Christ as best I can, and that I believe Jesus is my savior, I also understand that neither I or other Christians actually follow the Bible verbatim. Every Christian picks and chooses what they follow from the Bible. Certain denominations believe that certain parts of the law in the Bible have merit, while other parts of the law have been superseded by Christ and grace. Usually, Christians who go around pointing their finger in other people’s faces, saying that other folks are sinners (especially LGBTQ people these days— very popular according to evangelical right wing culture to condemn these folks and blame them for all manner of problems)— these Christians are often not reading the Bible for themselves or discerning for themselves what is true and how to best follow Christ. Rather they are following the whims of their own conservative and narrow minded culture, which is usually formed by the limitations of their own church leadership. Nowhere in the Bible does my savior judge or point out gay or gender non-conforming people as sinners. In fact, he blesses eunuchs and doesn’t ask that they change who they are.
I strongly recommend that you read Kathy Baldock’s Walking the Bridgeless Canyon, before you pretend like you know anything about the topic. Before your arrogance inspires you to continue in your prejudices, which is very unlike Christ. And Christ is my standard bearer for how I should best follow God’s plan for my life.
Here is a link to the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Bridgeless-Canyon-Repairing-Community/dp/1619200287#nav-search-keywords
this is a great place to start.
Here is a like to David's book. And it's only $5 on the Kindle. No-brainer at that price!
That would be a good book! One book I am aware of is Janet Heimlich's "Breaking Their Will". https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Their-Will-Religious-Maltreatment/dp/161614405X
In a sense he did.
I'm sort of left wondering, after reading his twelve points on Christianity, what's left after he pares away all the chaff.
Some Christians are already trying to evict the Bible from the religion. There's an excellent De-Conversion series on YouTube by Evid3nc3 which introduced John Spong's book Why Christianity Must Change Or Die.
Before watching this, I also thought that the Bible was inextricably tied to Christianity. And my rejection of the religion equates to my rejection of the book. But then I got to thinking... the bible is a Roman-Catholic invention. It was never needed!
Just write a Christian book about it:
"Farting Against Church Windows - A Sinner's Struggle With Love, Grace, and Postmodern Architecture."
With one of these cheesy covers, of course. That seems to get better in the US (random example), but over here in Germany several publishers still try to make me not read their books due to cover design nausea.
Cover design nausea.
That would be a neat Christianese™ term.
Example: Hey X, have you read that new blessed book by Max Lucado/Anselm Grün/John Eldredge yet? I really felt the Lord speaking to me, and it was a blessing to lift my heart up in silent time afterwards. - Uh, well... I tried, but I got a severe case of Cover Design Nausea in the bookstore.
TL;DR God's Politics by Jim Wallis is a decent starting place for frustrated American Christians in the modern era if nothing else. It's a little dated now, but it's still relevant. In general, any good Christian political theology will a) define the difference between the Church and the State and b) articulate how those two entities will relate to each other, especially in the life of the individual believer. You should step back from applying your faith to US politics until you can articulate your general Christian view of how believers around the world are to engage with States around the world. Once you have your broad principles of Christian political theology established, only then turn your gaze to US politics to apply what you believe.
-----
If I may be so direct, I think your core problem may be that you need a clearer political theology, not that you need to abandon politics altogether. As a pastor who's now lived all over the USA, I've noticed that many—if not the large majority—of professed Christians in America hear “faith and politics” and immediately assume you're talking about the religious right, the Moral Majority, etc. But the modern religious right is a rather new invention, one that didn't exist until the 1970s and 80s and emerged out of a targeted effort by Jerry Falwell, his fundamentalist allies, and Reagan's campaign team to link conservative politics and conservative theology. While today the politics of Falwell and friends is seen as normative for Christian politics, in reality there are nearly 2000 years history of Christian political thought, one in which you have everything from Prohibition organizers to pacifists rejecting politics altogether to Nazi theologians in the 1930s to medieval monarchists to Christian anarchists to the Civil Rights movement. In the words of Inigo Montoya, “Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.”
First, let's talk scriptures. You've got Romans 13:1-7, Matthew 22:15-22/Mark 12:13-17/Luke 20:20-26, Jeremiah 29:1-14, Isaiah 10:1-4, lots of case studies in Christian relationships to the State in Acts and the New Testament letters, and possible fodder from the Old Testament depending upon how you see the historic relationship between God and Israel via the law/covenant (i.e. setting the basic legal/economic framework for Israel), the monarchies (i.e. case studies in God's reactions to state actions), and the prophets (i.e. God's repeated calls for justice) speaking to God's present-day desires for any non-ancient-Israelite State. I've missed a few passages and themes, but those scriptures are the ones you're most likely to see in any Christian political theology and so should read on your own before going any further. You have to consider a lot of personal ethics stuff from scripture too. By what rule and on what scriptural grounds do we determine which Christian ethics—if any—apply to our political life and which—if any—do not. Does Amos' call for justice and the Old Testament decree of Jubilee speak to how we vote? If our State wants to go to war, how do we as Christians decide whether we support that war or not: do we reject all war, create a just war formula by which to evaluate wars, or give blanket endorsement to all that the State does? In general, how do we decide which parts of scripture speak only to our personal ethics, which to only our politics, and which to both?
Here is where Christian tradition comes in. u/jmj1970 cites Martin Luther's Two Kingdoms Doctrine, which essentially declares that some realms of human life belong to the State and some to the Church but that God ordains both kingdoms to our benefit. This idea is an old one, stretching back to St. Augustine in the 300s, and it's a good starting place for anyone new to Christian political theology. There are a few variations on this theme you might also consider. For instance, Abraham Kuyper advocated the notion of sphere sovereignty in the late 1800s, which expands the ideas of Two Kingdoms to set aside protected spheres of life not only for the State and Church but also for concepts like the family, economic life, etc. to ensure no one entity has totalitarian control of the human person. In general, most Christian theologies of politics will describe how the Church and State are distinct... and then go on to describe the nature of that relationship.
This is where you really get diversity in Christian political theology. To split this section into two broad categories, you have the Christian idealists and the Christian realists. Among the idealists and on a more pacifistic note, you've got John Howard Yoder and acolytes of his like Shane Claiborne—speaking out of the Mennonite pacifist tradition—who argue that the Church is wholly separate from but called to act prophetically towards the State, favoring personal pacifism, prophetic political acts, and the rejection anything that would appear to 'baptize' the State with the Church's endorsement or validation. Christian liberation theology and liberation theologians like James Cone and Gustavo Gutiérrez are similar in that they see Christ's life and work as one of standing in solidarity with the poor, the marginalized, and the oppressed. You've also got Christian anarchists like Leo Tolstoy in this branch. Finally, there are Christian groups who so radically reject politics they don't participate in politics at all, as well as others who claim that your faith has no bearing on your politics whatsoever, so don't even worry about any of these questions and vote however you like. These schools of thought can variously be seen as the “Christian political idealists”. In contrast, you have Reinhold Niebuhr and the school of [Christian realism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_realism_(international_relations). In this vein you can also find thinkers like Augustine (skip to section VII) and Aquinas, who typically will present the State as a necessary evil and give contexts, constraints, and justifications for how that necessary evil can be wielded. Most Christian theories of Just War fall into this camp. Finally, while I am not endorsing their views nor suggesting all Christian realists think this way, Hitler's German Christians, those who used Christianity to endorse slavery and apartheid or colonialism and the genocide of indigenous peoples, and others also fall into this camp in that they approve of necessary evils but take that approval to an extreme. Unfortunately for you, I fall into the Christian political idealist camp, so my understanding of Christian political realists is more limited and my view is that there is usually more similarity among the realists than among the more idealists. Mea culpa.
All this to say... don't let modern American politics cloud you into thinking that the modern religious right is the only form Christian politics has ever taken and that anything else is revolutionary or radically new. Conservative theology doesn't necessitate conservative politics. I myself am generally conservative in my theological beliefs but radically progressive in my politics, but until my conversion I was actually politically conservative and theologically liberal (i.e. my faith flipped my politics in contrast to what most might expect). While most Christian political thinkers will advocate some kind of distinction and separation between Church and State, the nature of that division varies widely from theologian to theologian and has done so for nearly 2000 years. To get you started on exploring this spectrum of Christian political, I would recommend God's Politics by Jim Wallis, followed by Reinhold Niebuhr's Moral Man and Immoral Society alongside Shane Claiborne's Jesus for President (admittedly not a scholarly work like Niebuhr's but still an accessible introduction).
Everyone interested in this subject should read Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne.
I would go as far to buy it for anyone, if needed.
Thanks for responding!
I think that there are a few books which have influenced me greatly, but I have a much more expansive list of books I want to read than ones I have already consumed.
To start, you should try the greats:
For a historical perspective, try: The Barbarian Conversion
Evolutionary perspective: The Selfish Gene
And, if you have a sense of wonder:
But this is such a small selection... Try them out and let them guide you to many more works.
God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I enjoyed it, tho' in my case it was largely preaching to the choir.
For starters, what's your time limit? This is a topic that would take a while to unpack and make a convincing case for. If you decide to go through with it, read Hitchen's book, Harris' two books, and watch some debates to determine how you want to deliver your speech. Make a list of different arguments that the religious use for when your audience asks the standard questions and have a response for them. Have a list of examples of problems that different religions have caused and the source for that information.
By trivializing a POV with statements like "Cry more?" and "crying in faux anger" you are certainly not adding anything to the conversation, and I might add, proving the point entirely.
There is clearly a double standard with regard to the religious demanding extra care and tenderness with regard to their "feelings" and yet no such respect is afforded to atheists.
As for this being a 'first world problem', clearly you have not read Hitchens, Harris or Dawkins. I suggest you start with "God is Not Great" by Hitchens to find out why this attitude is part of what's so damaging to everything and every socioeconomic group worldwide.
Watch him on video
I would highly recommend the debate between him and william lane craig (though IMO, you can skip over william lane craig and still get all the awesomeness)
Read his work, I would recommend God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, which also can be found on sites like the pirate bay if you are of that bent, and don't mind reading digital copies, there is also a good summary at wikipedia.
The Case for God and The Bible: A Biography by Karen Armstrong are both good. The God Delusion is a simple breakdown and explanation of most major religious claims. Beyond Religion: Ethics for a Whole World by the Dalai Llama is an interesting book on ethics. The Koran: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Cook is 150 funny and insightful pages on Islam. Under the Banner of Heaven is a shocking and fascinating account of fundamentalist Mormonism. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan discusses religion, and Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot are my secular versions of holy books. And of course given the occasion, I can't leave out God is Not Great.
I recommend avoiding authors like Lee Strobel and Deepak Chopra. Both are essentially liars for their causes, either inventing evidence, or deliberately being incredibly misleading in how they use terms. Popularity in those cases definitely doesn't indicate quality.
Religion Poisons EVERYTHING.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
Leaving the church can be an emotional and harrowing experience especially, if like me, you are a generational mormon. My dad was a convert but quit the church when he bailed on the family but on my moms side my grandfathers family goes back to the pioneers and my grandmothers parents were converts in California during the depression. For generations my family has been indoctrinated in the mormon belief system. I walked away from the church almost ten years ago but it took about four years to come to terms with it. At 40 years old I still have stuff creep up on me out of nowhere. Leaving tscc is a traumatic experience, we lose part of our identity, we lose parts of our community, we lose parts of our family. We have been the subject of generational psychological abuse and coping with that trauma is difficult enough but when we leave we are subjected to more abuse for having left. Leaving the church is a traumatic event piled on top of a lifelong traumatic event. I was able to come to terms with my hangups when, for unrelated reasons, began doing some research into PTSD and began to understand why my upbringing in the church was impacting me long after I left. I would recommend doing some readings on PTSD and overcoming indoctrination, it really helped me come to terms with me.
If you haven't you might want to take a look at Deism which is basically God created the universe and then moved onto other things. Thats right God has ADD.
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and God Is Not Great by Christoper Hitchens are great books to read when coming to terms with the loss/end of religion in your life. You don't have to go full on atheist, Dawkins even has 7 degrees of theistic belief, but reading those two books can help understand many things.
Religion Poisons Everything
Even the best religions are harmful to society. Everyone has the capability to be a good person without religion.
Never meant to imply that christianity has a monopoly on delusions of supremacy...
I think it is when it leads to tribalism and bigotry.
God is not great
The inverted bell curve is also pretty common for controversial and polarising issues, for example A People's History of the US, God Is Not Great and 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.
The way I see it, the inverted bell curve is a warning sign for novels (especially best-sellers) and technical books, but not necessarily for opinionated non-fiction where it may just indicate that many jimmies were rustled.
By lapsing into denial about the very real and present harm religion has caused, is causing, and will continue to cause unless we stop it.
&nbsp;
I recommend you read a little book titled God Is Not Great By Christopher Hitchens.
&nbsp;
Do not be fooled. There is no such thing as a benign delusion.
&nbsp;
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
I'm a little late to the party, but I just thought I'd add my voice.
There are a couple things I would like to say. I'm sure none of it hasn't already been said somewhere here, but I'll just repeat for emphasis.
First of all, hi! And welcome. I'm sure you are feeling so confused and overwhelmed right now. That's okay. There's a lot to take in and consider. Take your time, go at your own pace, and make sure that wherever you end up is a place that is right for you. It's important to always consider what others have to say but that doesn't mean you have to follow what they say. You make your decisions and you determine your path.
If this road you are taking brings you to atheism (or anything unacceptable to your family and/or friends) you do not have to come out before you are ready. Depending on your situation it could be very detrimental to do so before the time is right. If someone will do wrong by you if they know the truth, then you are by no means obligated to give them the truth. And when the right time is, only you can say. Others may be able to help you with it, but when it comes down to it, it is your life and your decision.
And, again, if you eventually begin to identify as an atheist it is possible, and maybe even probable that you will feel angry. Many of us have been through it, or still are going through it. Angry about things that are happening around the world today and angry about things from your upbringing. That is okay too. There are many things we should be angry about. Just don't let that anger consume you. And be sure to still be reasonable. Anger can be a good thing when placed appropriately and if it's kept in perspective. It's a hard field to navigate but you'll figure it out with time and experience.
Don't get so caught up in one worldview that you are stuck in an echo chamber, never exposed to differing thoughts and opinions. Keep an open mind and don't shut things out simply because you don't want to change your opinion or are so convinced of something that you think there's no chance you could ever be wrong. This really applies to everything in life...not just religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I wanted to address you personally, rather than discuss the beliefs because I'm sure you have been given so much to consider and read already. It is likely that everything I have to suggest has already been mentioned, but:
I could go on, but this post is already so much longer than I intended. So I'll just end on this note: things might look pretty frightening and overwhelming right now, but don't let it scare you off. There is no better feeling than learning and coming to your own conclusions about who you are and what you believe. Especially if you've had those things decided for you your entire life. If you ever need help or have questions, come here. There are many of us who are more than willing to do what we can to help.
Good luck! :)
God is Not Great. Getting it out there, I think it's probably one of the more inevitable ones.
Losing Faith in Faith and Godless each by Dan Barker.
Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett.
First ones that come to mind. I think a few theologians may be worth reading as well. Not sure what ones though. If Kent Hovind wrote a book, we could keep a facepalm count.
I was raised Jewish with all the schooling but never believed in a god. TzniusNotMyNameOh writes good questions to ask yourself. This year I refused to even be seated at the seder table (in the past I sat but didn't participate) because the entire Haggadah is just praising a god for killing other people. If you reread the stories of Lot and Dinah, they are also just as disgusting. And ask Orthodox about what they believe was the reason for god not intervening in the Holocaust- because he is too great for us to understand his reasons.
Some other books to check out:
God Is Not Great: How religion poisons everything by Christopher Hitchens
Unorthodox: The Scandalous Rejection of my Hasidic Roots by Deborah Feldman
The Year of Living Biblically by AJ Jacobs
Unchosen: The Hidden Lives of Hasidic Rebels
interview with Nathan Englander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
http://www.theatheistrabbi.com/
http://jewishatheist.blogspot.com/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/
http://i.imgur.com/YWUig.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7UdCA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rNOET.jpg
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/411550/its-raining-frogs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;v=6axdZAxyt2g&amp;feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5JtxrR6msg&amp;feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E67ommy95-o&amp;feature=related
http://vimeo.com/25149893
Antitheism/Christopher Hitchens FTW.
God Is Not Great
Christopher Hitchen's book god is Not Great is another good one. There was also a book on here the other day regarding deconversion from fundamental Christianity; it may be what you're looking for.
If you enjoyed the God Delusion you would probably enjoy either God Is Not Great by Hitchens or The End of Faith by Sam Harris
>This can only be said in good faith by someone who has not studied scripture, especially in its original language.
Ok then.
>In fact, there is a history of conservative Biblical scholars, including Jack Rogers starting from that position, and changing their minds after engaging with the scripture itself.
No, scripture is very clear. Homosexuality in thought and deed is wrong.
We should pray for Jack Rogers so that he comes to his senses.
>Can I still be a Christian and be transgender and queer?
YES! There are thousands of us all across the globe, you are definately not alone, sis. Here's a great book you should check out, https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Bible-Lives-Transgender-Christians/dp/0664263100
>To be honest I feel like God doesn’t accept me if for feeling this way :(
You feel that way because it looks like the only thing you have ever been taught. Hang around here more, and over on r/OpenChristian, meet and get to know other queer Christians. We've got a discord link around here and there somewhere. Also, head over to https://gaychurch.org , and find an affirming church near you, support and fellowship is crucial as well.
Austen Hartke’s book is an amazing resource for those that come from a Christian background and are dealing with family that is using religion to hurt.
Transforming.
I would suggest reading Why Christianity Must Change or Die by John Shelby Spong. He was was the Episcopalian Arch Bishop of Newark, and his idea of God is not that of a deity, but he still considers himself Christian.
You might like a more liberal Chirstian church like the Episcopal or Anglican church. Check out the book "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by Epicopal Bishop John Shelby Spong.
You might also like a western form of Doism, check out the Tao Te Ching
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
Many Christians have the same doubts as you but are forced to hide their inner beliefs and doubts out of fear of condemnation from fellow believers. I have experienced the prejudice of believers first hand. It's like the old military mantra of "Don't ask, don't tell" except it applies to Christians this time and not homosexuals.
I went through a similar phase as you. Is there a God? How do I know Christianity is right...why not Islam or Buddhism? All claim to be the truth. With heaven and hell at stake, why is God going to penalize a mere human for chosing or being born into the wrong religion?
If I were raised Muslim I'd believe that Jesus was just a prophet and that the Trinity is idolatry whereas a Christian has no problem with the Trinity or believing that Jesus was way more than just a prophet. None of us were there when these two religions were born but we will be eternally accountable for the wrong choice?
What I realized was that scripture is abused when only taken literal and that literalism kills the truth being conveyed. That is why I had the above questions and thoughts. The mind games I had to jump through were just too much. Adam and Eve had to be real right? But what if they were archetypes that reflected truth? A talking snake or was the snake just a symbol not meant to be taken literally?
Look into other views of Christianity and see where you fit in.
Yeah, I understand your concerns, in fact I share them! Dogmatic religious ideology is inherently anti-human. It's a serious problem.
However, I do not like "black and white" thinking. And I don't like categorizing people as "us and them". That, IMO, is part of the problem not the solution.
It's very important to empathize with others, even more so with those who are different than you! If you want to have a dialogue you need to try to understand them, and to relate to them.
So while you're absolutely correct that what I am describing is not synonymous with fervent religious faith, I'm comfortable that it is close enough to build mutual understanding and empathy.
Further, a lot of atheists seem to equate religious faith with fundamentalism. That is a mistake! Moderate/liberal religious people have more in common with us than they do the fundamentalist. Bishop Shelby Spong is a good, albeit extreme, example of this:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
They know their religion isn't "factually true"; they think of it as a useful mythology and a social club.
I would rather work together with those people against than create "us and them" categories that pretend their faith is equivalent to that of fundamentalists.
I know I fly in the face of the anti-theist agenda, but my momma taught me that you catch more flies with honey.
I think it refers to this book http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
There are many factors involved.
>Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
>2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
So you are seeing and choosing and working, but it is as God is showing and calling and working. It's both at once. And yet as I said before, not only God...
>1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared,
So we must be careful. Without a life rich in God and acts of faithfulness, it can be very easy to be led astray, and to have our consciences seared so we do not even feel what we are truly doing to ourselves. There are even some ways that we can be blind to a whole culture of sin we don't even recognize because we are distracted by the most severe offenses of passion.
For some good examples of what I mean by that last bit, I recommend a book called "Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile" by Rob Bell. He isn't always a good teacher, so he has fallen out of popularity and you can find the book used for a penny on Amazon, but while I wouldn't recommend everything he has written, that one book is a good easily accessible teaching on incarnational faith and opening your eyes wider to what holiness is about and the kind of spiritual circumstances we're in with our modern materialistic culture and how it can affect our spiritual vitality.
But as for right now, a simple analogy. We say "bearing fruit" right? Well if a plant isn't bearing fruit, do you change the plant, or do you change the conditions the plant is in? Clearly everyone knows you do the latter, and cultivating our faith is the same way. It's not about just forcing ourselves to desire and to do good in any state, but we amend our lives so that holiness grows in us naturally from all the factors we have arranged. Some of it is where and how we are grounded, some is receiving enough light, some is a regimen of disciplines to nourish us. It's not all pruning.
Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne, and Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile (which is not called Jesus Wants to Save Christian: Learning to Read a Dangerous Book).
Books
Reading the Bible Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg. This is a good place to start learning a Christian approach to the Bible that doesn't assume inerrancy.
Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright. Wright offers a hopeful eschatology that stands in stark contrast to the "Left Behind"/dispensationalist eschatology that the evangelical church has widely embraced.
Jesus Wants to Save Christians by Rob Bell and Don Golden. Bell and Golden tell the large story of the Bible and reveal the social vision and mission of the God of the oppressed.
Proclaiming the Scandal of the Cross by Mark Baker. Baker offers a collection of essays written by different pastors and theologians on the subject of the atonement. This would be a great place to start understanding the atonement outside of penal satisfaction theory.
The Prodigal God by Tim Keller. This is the best thing I've ever read on the Prodigal Son/Parable of the Two Sons. He is Reformed though.
Whose Afraid of Postmodernism? by James K.A. Smith. This is a good introduction to postmodernism for church people (one that doesn't caricature and demonize Derrida, Lyotard, and Foucault) .
Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus by Ann Spangler. A great crash course in the Jewishness of Jesus.
Podcasts
I regularly listen to the podcast from Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, Michigan featuring pastors Shane Hipps and Rob Bell (I know he's infamous in evangelical circles, but give him a chance and decide for yourself if he's a heretic).
I love the Mennonites. I get my regular Mennonite fix from Trinity Mennonite Church. Their sermon podcast can be found here.
__
The OpenYale introductions to the Old and New Testament are phenomenal. If you want a look at how some of the best scholarship approaches the text, check them out.
For more ideas check out his book Jesus For President
It's written for an American audience but is definitely relevant in other parts of the world.
> Christ never got involved in politics. And "Christians" (or people claiming to be) today are destroying our reputation by doing so. It is time Christians listen to their own advice and read the bible.
I feel that this illustrates a great misconception within the Christian community regarding what does and does not constitute legitimate political activity. Insofar as Christ interacted with and even brought criticism to loci of socioeconomic power in his milieu, insofar as Christ sought to not only instruct but influence the behavior of others (either individually or as a group), he was most certainly involved in politics. What Christ was not involved in was political gerrymandering or ladder climbing, and it is this specific variety of political activity where Christians today often part ways with Jesus's approach. Indeed, Christ repeatedly emphasized that his Kingdom was "not of this world," that he would not introduce the Kingdom of God vis-a-vis an overthrow of Roman authority as so many expected the Messiah to accomplish--often to the chagrin of his closest followers.
Christians need to recover a better, broader sense of legitimate political action. Not only is fixation upon leveraging the highest echelons of political power different than Christ's approach, it's much less interesting and much less effective at promoting lasting change than the spectrum of other political activity available to us. We get distracted by the misbelief that we can alter people's hearts and minds by legislatively shifting society in a more "Christian" direction. We forget that we are called to be salt (a preserving agent) and light (a clarifying, hope-inducing) agent to our world by following the even more revolutionary path Christ himself tred.
I believe that as followers of Messiah, we are most certainly called to political action--just not the sort of political action for which we are unfortunately known. Great examples of contemporary theological reflection on this point include the following, to name a few:
Okay let me clarify my position to you. **warning it will be kind of long so I can try to be precise and concise about what I am saying.
So within Catholic teachings, same sex attraction (ie being gay) is not sinful. It may lead to a particular set of temptations. The temptation is not sinful. Sin would only enter if one succumbs to that temptation (which in this case means to lust or to physical act on those temptations). The same sex attractions may persist for a lifetime and represent a cross the person carries or it may be only for a season. The persistence of the same sex attractions (i.e being gay is not sinful).
>Christians believe being gay is a choice. And that you can turn from it
When I saw you say the above. That reads as basically saying that a person chooses to experience same sex attractions and that if they really wanted to, they could stop experiencing them and become straight. You even used an example of a person you said was gay and become straight. and with this comment (https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/d73x9i/just_a_reminder_about_gay_sin/f0xqp0j/) I took it as meaning the gay celibate person following God wasn't trying hard enough and didn't truly believe since they still had the same sex attractions.
Comments like this after:
>I believe because I thought like them. That’s what makes my faith so powerful to me. Give it a try.
Because we were arguing two different things read to me like the celibate gay person example doesn't have powerful faith like you and if they gave it a try (implying they didn't have faith to begin with) they would be 'fixed' too. Which wasn't what you meant correct?
What I was trying to ask you was you seemed to suggest that if a person (in this case for example) didn't become straight that they were not trying hard enough (using your example and your friends example). I used Paul's thorn in his side to suggest that while God can remove crosses in our lives, he doesn't always. He promises to give us strength to carry them but not always to remove them for reasons that aren't always clear to us though Paul has some understanding for his personal cross.
The reason I asked because there are groups who would suggest that a celibate gay person who is abstaining from lust and sexual activity but still experiences temptations is actively sinning because they are not straight, that they don't really want it or haven't tried hard enough, that they lack true faith. In my view people who suggest that are basically saying persistence of a cross even if you carry it is a sign of lack of faith and if you have enough faith God gives you want you want (ie remove the cross or make you rich) which to me is in essence a form of gospel of prosperity heresy.
I tried to reference an article that talked somewhat about that here (I'll pull out the important excerpt): https://spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/09/celibacy-and-healing/
>To pray for healing and to pray for orientation change are not identical. Paul says that though some of the Corinthians had engaged in various forms of sin, including homosexual activity, they were washed, sanctified, and justified. Some have used this as proof that God promises orientation change. But in the very next chapter, he praises celibacy as a higher calling—a better way of serving Christ—than marriage. If we are to “earnestly desire the higher gifts,” and to pray boldly for them, then there surely is nothing amiss if we pray boldly for this gift.
>To live celibacy well requires in some ways a deeper healing, and a more dramatic inner transformation than opposite sex marriage would require. Although our pursuit of chastity—whether in marriage or in single life—begins with difficult self-denial, and often involves ongoing seasons of deep struggle, we shouldn’t think of celibacy primarily as a “booby prize”: the consolation given to the losers whose prayers for “healing” (understood solely in terms of orientation change) go unanswered. Nor should we view the sometimes gradual but resolute approach to Christian perfection in the life of those whose orientation has not changed as evidence that God has not healed. To do so involves a radical misunderstanding of vocation and of the work of the Holy Spirit.
I also tried to give you a good reference of Wesley Hill. He is an Anglican college professor who is gay (ie experiences same sex attractions) but adheres to a traditional sexual ethic. He wrote a short book about his personal testimonial and some of his theological viewpoints called "Washed and Waiting" (https://www.amazon.com/Washed-Waiting-Reflections-Faithfulness-Homosexuality/dp/0310534194)
There are groups out there (particular among some independent Baptists) who think that being gay (ie experiencing same sex attractions) equates to being reprobate and meaning one is not saved or lacks authentic faith. Others argue that simply experiencing same sex attraction is itself sinful regardless how someone responds to it. For them, the only way for that person to be redeemed would be to become straight. So my close friend who is in his 50s, gay but holds to a traditional sexual ethic, loves the Lord, and seeks to live in the light of Christ would be damned to them simply because he carries a particular cross. I think because of confusion between what my argument was and some misunderstanding of what I thought you were saying it felt to me like you were arguing that position.
I am sorry. I wish I could understand, but I don't either. The only thing I can offer to maybe help is some reading suggestions. I would highly recommend reading Wesley Hill. His book, Washed and Waiting, is great and talks a lot about his struggles as a celibate gay Christian man. His work has really blessed me. Also, Spiritual Friendship is similar and goes into a what friendship can and should be.
I hope that God might speak to you through these books.
I have found Wesley Hill's talks and writing about homosexuality from a Christian perspective interesting. Here is a book that looks like it might be relevant to you:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310534194/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
sigh throwing a pile of books at me instead of discussing the points kind of kills the discussion.
May I simply invite you to read a few books too then.
http://www.talkorigins.org/ - for general debunking of various evolutiony topics creationists cling to.
Two great books on biology and how it doesn't support god.
https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evidence-Evolution-Universe/dp/0393351491
https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Popular-Science/dp/0192860925
And hey, everyone should read at last one Hitchen book.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&amp;psc=1&amp;refRID=YRA4TF2KH358H7VAVG9X
Fair enough, but there are also books that simply talk about atheism without having a strong agenda in either direction. One of my favorite books ever is God's Funeral https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Funeral-Decline-Western-Civilization/dp/0393047458 which gives an objective history about how Western society has moved away from religion, and how atheism has manifested itself in art, academia, and philosophy. The entire time I was reading it I was also trying to figure out whether or not the author intended to promote or argue against it all, but I never could. That's actually one of my favorite things about it.
Also I think your argument only goes so far. Books like God is not great https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966 do spend a lot of time talking about religion, but they spend more time promoting things like reason and critical thinking, only using religion as proof to the points, and not giving it the objective or in depth coverage of any real "study".
I don't know if Dawkins "saved" me entirely, I think I had already converted before I read his works, but he certainly helped strengthen my convictions. I also have to give immense credit to Christopher Hitchens! He is the most painfully articulate voice for atheism I have ever heard, I could listen to him debate all day. His book is a must read. What I enjoyed most about it was it's historical information which was fascinating, the book has an entire chapter which discusses "Why heaven hates ham".
Indeed.
1 book: The Portable Atheist.
For further reading: God Is Not Great and The God Delusion.
Secular ideologies can be just as authoritarian as religious ideologies. re: communist china, the state is their "religion" and it will crush any potential challenger, including atheists. It is not a fair representation of a potential secular society. Secular humanism would be a far more ideal "state philosophy."
I'm not as well versed in Mughals or House of Baghdad. The Renaissance was inspired by humanism and was a break from the theocracy that came before, and further distanced itself with the enlightenment.
There's an argument that any cultural human achievement, especially those within theocratic societies, could have been just as good if not better if they occurred in a secular humanist society
Here's a book I think she should read
Dearest Sir,
Watch this.
I presume you've read the bible, have you read the case against? Here are two books I recommend. 1 and 2. I'm not going to answer your argument as it goes beyond rationality and is too poor to continue a rational debate. Please educate yourself either through what I have shown you or other means.
Yours truly,
A fellow mammal.
Hello,
One of the first books I read after deciding to leave JW was God is not Not Great by Christopher Hitchens https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966. It was a great reading, especially because it was the first time I ever read anything like this, a straight forward attack on religions with reason as a base.
Also, if you are further interested in rational thinking, Hitchens has some great books!! I recommend "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens!! https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=god+is+not+great&qid=1558554004&s=gateway&sr=8-1
Also, if you have time, read God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Hitchens.
Awesome, it's great you're so proud of her!
Haha knowledge that leads to everlasting boredom! Book studies were the worst, I always felt super obligated to study extra hard because there were so few people that often nobody would answer!
Don't be so sure that your family will keep abandoning you, it's possible sure, but there's always hope! Often they're surprised that you can leave the witnesses and live a normal, or even better than normal life (of course there's always the "blessed by satan" get out clause) but they do expect people who leave to get aids and die from a heroin overdose.
It's easy to prove them wrong! Either way though, you have your own family to look out for and you can learn what not to do!
On to the suggested reading. I've mentioned many on here before but I don't expect everyone to be aware of it all so here goes:
Reading (I have a kindle and love reading, but they're all available for ebook and in paperback)
Web
Pocasts
(all on iTunes etc, i like them because I can listen at work or download to my phone)
That's about it for now, if you soak all that in / want more / have suggestions let me know, and I'd love to hear what you think! :)
This one is my favorite...
Your next mission fellow baby eater is to read these 2 books.
The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values
God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
>But what is your personal opinion on the bond that love can have.
This is called "pair bonding" and can be explained by evolution.
>wouldn't that require the same method of proof?
Yes, it's called evolution.
>They were experimenting on inducing paranormal experiences and they made a sort of helmet that stimulated the brain. If i can find it you might be interested in it.
I've seen this and it proves my point. Simple brain chemistry explains everything perceived as paranormal.
>For you to believe something you need proof
This isn't necessarily true. If a friend of mine says he had a peanutbutter sandwich for lunch I don't need evidence. He's not making an extraordinary claim. If a friend of mine says he has an invisible pet dragon in his garage, I'm going to a little more than just his word.
You said you were 26. Fine, I don't need evidence. You said you heard wolves speaking to you. I'm gonna need little more on that.
See the difference?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That which can be claimed without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
This is the reason atheists are so tough on religious claims. There's no evidence AND THEY HURT SOCIETY.
For example: Suicide bombers are almost entirely religious. Same with those who mutilate infant genitalia (male and female circumcision). Praying for your child to get better when their appendix ruptures rather than taking them to a hospital is a religious decision. Same with teaching Creationism vs. Evolution. Believing in bullshit has consequences.
Christopher Hitchens was EXACTLY correct when he wrote in the subtitle to his book that Religion Poisons Everything. Another book you should probably read at some point.
At the risk of sounding rude (again) everything you've brought up is what's known as P.R.A.T.T. These are arguments that have been Previously Refuted A Thousand Times.
I'll bet if you read a book a month for six months ALL of your questions would be answered.
Again, it's sort of a choice. Live in the dark and think that spells and coincidences are the way of the world. Or, become scientifically literate.
And don't take this criticism too harshly. I told you earlier that I believed in bullshit far, far too long. I was in my late 20's when I started reading. Now at 41 I've read almost 400 books. But you gotta start somewhere...
The obligatory two books are Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great (How Religion Poisons Everything). Both are fantastic, Dawkins tends to focus more on Christianity and Hitchens is more widespread showing how dangerous it is across the board with many diverse examples.
For a broader sense start reading up on Philosophy and other religions, you will find that Christianity is nothing special and is quite weak in some areas. Familiarize yourself with the fallacies that are common in religious explanations as well. This way when the indoctrination starts to creep up you can look at the reasons you believed and see through them for what they are. Such engrained behaviors can be hard to shake, especially when guilt is involved as religion is a master craft at guilt manipulation. Once you see through the magic trick it looses it's power.
Another great book is The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins, it shows how evolution works from a genetic level. I know you said you accept evolution and that is great, this will give you a more in depth look into the mechanics of the process and how we are no different than any other life form aside from our development tree. Its easy to read and understand, in fact this book really helped me break away from some of the mentalities of religion since it shows how humans really arent anything special and are very young.
Another author is Sam Harris, he has a lot of books that can help a deconvert find meaning in things they once valued without the need for religion, on subjects like morality, free will, spirituality, and other aspects.
Here is Hitchens' book on youtube read by the man himself:
God is not Great
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
thoughtfull powerfull mean polarizing logical, yet a bit biased. just a bit. or anything from umberto eco.
Poisons everything, if you believe Hitchens.
I think that's going too far, though.
That's a mildly-defensible logical position, but once you realize that you are smart enough to say "there's no such thing as a flying spaghetti monster" and that no one has to prove 100% that it doesn't exist for you to use your brain and make the "bold statement" that a magical flying invisible being made of spaghetti doesn't exist .... you will realize why you are an atheist and not an agnostic. Just give it a few years of listening to ridiculous explanations for why there might be a God. "Who can really know?!" Umm, you can. I bet that you find it more than "not very plausible". You know it's bullshit. So instead of dancing around with philosophical possibilities and definitions of the word "know", just be honest with yourself. For all intents and purposes, to the extent that anything is a fact (e.g. how can you prove anything at all?!?!), it's a fact: there is no God and all spiritual aspects of all religions are lies. Just because there are some good life tips mixed in does not make the spirituality of any religion any more sane.
As for religion being evil, I would start by suggesting that you read a book by Christopher Hitchens, such as God is Not Great: Why Religion Poisons Everything. You may come to agree that saying God doesn't exist is more than my right; it's important for humanity and no more arrogant than saying that China is a real place on the other side of the planet.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
I say he should pass out this book instead!
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
Come /r/atheism, let's get him the money.
I recommend God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.
Here is the mobile version of your link
This article is nice. It's very cursory and easy to understand. For some more extended reading on the subject
Reminds me of the premise of the book The Benedict Option, which I haven't gotten around to reading yet.
Bsp Barron says that during times of hardship we should “hunker down,” to keep the faith alive. He cites John Paul II as an example of this where, as a younger man, Wojtyla kept himself hidden from Communist oppression, studying the faith intensively, thus allowing him to bring it back to people later in life as Pope. Without that period of hiding, Wojtyla may never have become Pope.
We may be so inclined to do the same again. In this period of modern spiritual and social anxiety, an “Anxious Age” in a Post-Protestant America, we may indeed again might have to hunker-down to keep the faith alive, allowing us to bring it back to the world when time permits. Or perhaps we could take the “Benedict Option” approach by simply retreating into our own self-sustaining communities of faith - something the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, and even Mormons have accomplished quite well. In self-isolation, these groups are able to maintain identity against a hyper-liberalized consumer culture which tells us that religion “can be whatever you want.” They maintain their sense of purpose by leaving those who have none.
Of course, that’s an extreme. But it’s something to consider.
That being said, we must remember that this spiritual anxiety has very much been caused not because we, as a society, have intellectually “outgrown God,” as many modern secular thinkers posit, like Steven Pinker or Yuval Harari. Rather, it is that a sense of language, a language that allowed us to discuss and believe in the transcendent. has been lost in the wake of modernity. Hyper-liberalism, with its mixing of a consumer lead culture and a focus on the needs of the individual above all else, along with the denial of the value of authority (especially so as it relates to the church) has bred an extreme relativism that would be unthinkable several decades ago.
When we read the words of the spiritually drifting Nones who make up so much of our generation, we do not find individuals who are extremely well educated about religion, philosophy, history or science. They are in many respects simply basic with their understanding of the world in that they are not extraordinarily well educated about any particular subject as it relates to the faith. Many millennial Christians themselves espouse outright heresy, though it’s usually inadvertent.
We are not dealing with some sort of grand atheistic intellectual movement in the halls of American high schools and colleges. It’s not as though such students are all huddling together sharing essays from David Hume, since the majority don’t even know his name. They are spiritually lost because of ignorance, and because of cultural reasons, like the increasing rates of religious and ethnic diversity which pressure us when it comes to stating objective truths (since sharing the Gospel as a factual reality would make our non-Christian neighbor uncomfortable). It is our job to “re-educate” our peers on Mere Christianity. No one else will do it.
It’ll be hard struggle.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/the-benedict-option/
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/benedict-option-faq/
Here's the book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Benedict-Option-Strategy-Christians-Post-Christian/dp/0735213291
Nice piece! Beyond Good Intentions and When Helping Hurts are a couple books which deal with this issue.
For those here with the desire to help, check out When Helping Hurts: How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor . . . and Yourself
Hey, if you've got the skill, maybe construction would be great!! I think I'll make an updated suggestion... and that is to not go where you think they're lacking numbers; rather, go where you're skills contribute the best.
And to you're second point - yes, you're definitely on point which is great. You're being very cognizant and thoughtful of the population you're trying to serve. The idea you're bringing up has been a common complaint in development work for years now. Don't know if you ascribe to a particular faith, but When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert is a wonderful book that would address many of your concerns. It is written from a Christian perspective so bear that in mind if that does not interest you. There are so many other great resources though that are secular that point to the same ideas. There are ways to make a short-term mission valuable/helpful, and maintain the dignity of everyone involved! I can dig around for them when I'm at home if you'd like?
This is sort of a localized version on the missions debate about whether to send in a foreign missionary or to just send money to local ministries.
One thing I don' think this article really discussed was the quality of the churches that were already there. There may be some great ones, but to use my town as an example, a lot of the urban churches are through and through full on prosperity gospel. Many of the rest are watered-down, no gospel but yay social justice only churches. I know people that have left both types. There are a few great urban churches, too, and we support those with funds and volunteers. When possible, we do come along existing ministries or pastors that are preaching the Gospel. But to assume that just because a 'church' is there doing work it is a good church is dubious. And this isn't specific to urban areas - can (and has) happened just as much in suburbs.
That said, I have seen churches come in like benevolent parent and try to fix all the (implied) stupid, poor people. It is painful to watch. I think you have to find a way to walk that line between interfering with authentic churches/ministries and bringing a church plant to where one is actually needed.
Related-ish: I really recommend reading the book When Helping Hurts. If nothing else, it will definitely make you re-examine yourself and your motives.
As a habitat volunteer you are distinctly poised with their training and experiences regarding paternalism - concepts that your typical western christian church probably doesn't realize.
While you sound supportive of mission trips, do be aware that, the less we are part of a culture and the less that we understand it the more likely we are hurting instead of helping.
http://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802457061
http://pippabiddle.com/2014/02/18/the-problem-with-little-white-girls-and-boys/
On the book it is "god is not Great". If he followed the way Hitchens wrote it he would have typed it that way.
Source: http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Christopher-Hitchens-ebook/dp/B00287KD4Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1407768179&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=god+is+not+great
Check out this book.
I want to recommend two books to you which defend Christianity's 'traditional' interpretation of homosexuality.
Is God Anti-Gay? and The Plausibility Problem
Both are written by same-sex attracted men who have chosen to remain celibate due to their understanding of Christian teaching.
I would really encourage you to read a small book by Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation.
Could I recommend two books to you? One is by a devout Catholic (and former long-time political blogger, former editor of The New Republic) Andrew Sullivan. In his book Virtually Normal: An Argument about Homosexuality he discusses at length what he calls the prohibitionist view, which is his classification for most of the religious statements and philosophy on human sexuality as regards gay people. As a kid (well young 20-something) from a religious background (Lutheran) who was coming out as gay, it was one of the most influential books I have read in my entire life. It was quite literally life-changing in the way I thought about myself. In spite of it being 20 years old, it really holds up, and it's one of the best serious texts dealing with the matter of how society regards gay people and our relationships.
Another really good book is What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality which is written by a now-former Catholic Priest (he was still a member of the clergy when he initially wrote the book). It talks about the biblical verses (the so-called "clobber passages") that are often cited against gay people and tries to frame them in a social and cultural context (as well as a linguistic one) for the time they were written. This has less bearing on the natural law arguments which the Catholic church makes, but it's not without bearing, either. And it's not as if the Church has never changed elements of its moral philosophy over time. I'm aware that matters of
Doctrine^^EDIT: dogma are not up for debate or change, but the statements on human sexuality, as far as I am aware, do not fall into that category.------------------------------------------
> All that's a round about way of saying, we don't say that to try and hurt people, we do it because we think we are helping people. Now, maybe we are all wrong, but none of our criticism comes from a place of malice.
I will say that for a large number of Catholics, this is almost certainly true, but I think you would be hard pressed to deny that there are a great many religious people and prominent leaders, including Catholics, with a lot of animus for gay people, whose actions do not convey so much as a modicum of "love" or a tiny glimmer of "care". It's not a majority of Catholics, at least not in the US, as a majority of Catholics in the US are supportive of marriage equality and have been for about half a decade, now. But there's definitely a significant plurality that cannot be ignored.
> I don't know where you get that connotation from
Maybe you aren't aware of this but the term "Gay Agenda" or "Homosexual Agenda" is very popular and commonly used amongst conservative conspiracy theorists claiming that the gay and lesbian struggle for equal human rights is actually a ploy for some sort of gay supremacy. That's where I get the connotation.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure you're arguing against a position that I'm not actually taking. I'm not saying he can't spend money trying to make it illegal for gays to marry. It is okay for him to do that. It is then okay for a few hundred people (thousands, maybe?) to voice their discontent with his appointment to the CEO of a large company/corporation/whatever Mozilla is. We are in agreement that if he was forced out of the position because of his political position he probably has a legal venue to follow. Now, if you want to talk about Tyranny of the Majority, that might be an interesting discussion - though just because the majority believe something doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.
I like both of the movies you quoted. While we're throwing out seemingly-related movie quotations, I'd like to share this one from *Mr Smith Goes to Wasthington"
>[After reading the Declaration of Independence] Now, you're not gonna have a country that can make these kind of rules work, if you haven't got men that have learned to tell human rights from a punch in the nose
It's a book by Alan Sears and Craig Osten. It's been a while since I've read it, so I won't say much more than it is an interesting read, but their arguments aren't super compelling.
I knew some asshole had to write one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/Homosexual-Agenda-Exposing-Principal-Religious/dp/0805426981/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1467408173&amp;sr=8-3&amp;keywords=gay+agenda
I actually own a copy
I have three books on my shelves at the moment that I'd gladly recommend:
Torn by Justin Lee. Outside of the US the book is called Unconditional.
Bible Gender Sexuality by James V. Brownson.
God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines.
Here is a site to help you find an affirming church:
http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/
Also, if you can get your hands on this book God and the Gay Christian, it will help you with a lot of your Bible questions.
"Thank you for sharing that reading with me earlier. I also have some reading I was hoping we could sit down and look at." http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
Sorry your parents are being jerks. Hopefully they'll come around.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1420955198&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=god+and+the+gay+christian
If they would be receptive to something written by an evangelical biblical scholar who is gay, I recommend God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines. http://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/1601425163
He tells his personal story AND addresses all the biblical texts that have been used against gay people. He makes a very convincing case for an inclusive and affirming faith that's based in scripture. He also gives a compassionate account of his father's experience of coming to accept him as a gay Christian.
You should also check out God and the gay christian by Matthew Vines. It's a relatively short book, but it cemented the belief that homosexuality isn't a sin in my mind.
If you want to learn about how legal child abuse can be, I suggest the book 'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich (Amazon link for those who want to read a summary https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Their-Will-Religious-Maltreatment/dp/161614405X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1479866917&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=breaking+their+will ). I highly recommend this book, it's eye opening and infuriating.
You should read (or at least check out) Janet Heimlich's book Breaking their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment.
http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Their-Will-Religious-Maltreatment/dp/161614405X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1380811406&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=breaking+their+will+shedding+light+on+religious+child+maltreatment
It's enlightening to expose just what can happen when adults are given all the power they can wield over children in the name of religion in hopes of raising up another generation of adults who never question authority.
I'm going to suggest two books:this and this one comes from a liberal standpoint and the other is conservative.
Ohai person whose story closely resembles my own. :D
P.S.
Yeh, that author, Daniel Helmeniak wrote one of the first pro-gay Christian books What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. Apparently he continues to be a vital thinking man/theologian.
Here's a good, Reformed book on the issue: https://www.amazon.com/Christians-Get-Depressed-Too-People/dp/1601781008
Yes redicule is a favorite homosexual argument in america. I did not say they had yet completed their agenda. Putins still in office so they cannot have! You speak of tolerance and freedom, which is good, but americans cannot even understand what that means! All children in america starting in middle school are regulatily and systematically indoctrinated. Did you read the link? Here is book, if american attention span can still withstand an entite book. http://www.amazon.com/The-Homosexual-Agenda-Principal-Religious/dp/0805426981
I think you fail to see who got that person rich. Most likely the average consumer buying the product and those people are probably the family of the hurting. I'm one of them.
I don't give my incarcerated family members money but it hurts to see them go without while not having down anything morally wrong. Just bad decisions and almost no help from society.
When Helping Hurts
When Jesus speaks of treating your neighbors with respect, he means your peers. People like you.
Jesus's word is intended to separate families and turn them against each other. You should not accept people who believe in other Gods or no Gods. If you do, you will lose your chance to enter heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Jesus doesn't care about foreigners/non-believers.
10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This is made even more clear when he refused to heal a woman of Canann until she agreed with his assertion that she was a dog and belittled herself before him.
15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
All quotes are from Matthew, one of the four pillars of Christianity.
Despite the fact that your version of Christianity is far more accepting, and in my opinion superior, you are the one who is "Christian". It's difficult, if not impossible to be a good Christian without deviating from how the Bible indicates we should behave. It's how we end up with books like this.
Edit: Formatting.
I found Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything a good introduction to one of the largest "curtains" on Earth, a belief in God.
https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
Hitchens is very intelligent and articulate, world-famous for debating and his writings.
https://youtu.be/xFnSjmQCGDM
Sam Harris - The End of Faith
Christopher Hitchens - God Is Not Great
Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion
Don’t let man fool you. -
God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything https://www.amazon.com/dp/0446697966/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_XFI0CbJAEBKG4
The Anti-Buddha -
Siddhartha: A Novel https://www.amazon.com/dp/0553208845/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_nGI0Cb6NA5W1Y
I can't defend something I know nothing about. I am happy to defend free speech though and it always better to debate ideas rather than try to have them removed from common discourse. This is a principle I will defend.
No I compared two sets of protesters and your willingness to defend one group and condemn the other simply because popular opinion is so heavily behind you.
You said yourself that you think Sharia is an idea of idiots- but them in the same thread condemn those who speak out against it as Nazis. I think you might be a victim of social engineering.
You should try- "God is not great how religion poisons everything"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
I really admire what they're doing. Debt and poverty are difficult problems, because while on the surface they appear to be strictly a lack of material resources, in truth they're often also grounded social/personal/pyschological issues, and material poverty is merely a symptom or indicator. I read a book a few weeks ago called "When Helping Hurts - How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor or Yourself", and it went very in-depth into why strictly material approaches ("this person/organization is short on cash: give them cash") rarely work in the long-term, and how true long-term change requires a change of thinking and lifestyle, which is much more difficult, though doable with commitment and time. Often "stop the bleeding/poverty alleviation" efforts, such as after Hurricane Katrina or Haiti, are done with good intentions, but end up causing more harm in the long-term than they do good.
The book is written from a Christian standpoint/worldview, but much of the content applies to non-religious charitable giving, charity work, and NGO relief efforts as well.
That being said, I do admire and appreciate what this group is doing, sort of spontaneous gifts of debt relief, and it's encouraging to see. Here's hoping there are more who will follow their aspirations!
I would argue that any benefit brought by religion would be amplified if obtained elsewhere, and without these negative extremism consequences. If you're interested, Hitchens wrote a fascinating book called god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, which is what my previous comment was referencing.
Books like this from Hitchens or this from Nietzsche develop a doctrine of non-belief for those that are convinced by the atheistic arguments. I wasn't, so I stopped the practices of unbelief which vary like those of believers.
Have you asked her to read God Is Not Great or The God Delusion?
Have you read these books yourself?
Is her family religious?
This book: http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Not-Great-Everything/dp/0446697966
Here is another good read: https://www.amazon.com/God-anti-gay-Questions-Christians-Ask/dp/1908762314
This could not be closer to the truth. I read a book call When Helping Hurts and in it talked about how dangerously free giving can be and how you take the right approach to helping those in need and herein lies the problem with how American society works (and I am sure other countries as well).
The typically answer to poverty is to throw money at it, or provide an instant gratification. The correct response, teach the person or group to go out and find work on their own or teach them the life skills that will better equip them to deal with life. A prime example was those who are providing cooking ideas on a low budget.
There is a tipping point though, when providing instant relief is required due to dangers to someone’s well being. That would probably be the toughest determination of it all.
When Helping Hurts - I have no ties to this book or authors but I feel it is a great read for those who deal with low-income or poverty stricken people on a day-to-day basis. WARNING: Yes this is a Christian book.
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446697966
http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248
I don't want to be 'that' guy, however you cannot scripturally justify engaging in same-sex relationships and sex.
I am a bisexual teenage Anglican like yourself. It is important to note that same-sex feelings are OK. They are not a sin, nor evil. But engaging with those feelings is a sin and cannot be scripturally justified. It's these reasons why I remain celibate, and don't allow my same-sex feelings to control me or define me: those thoughts come, and I let them go.
Is it the worst sin? No, it's not. But by having a same-sex relationship, you are engaging in sin; no amount of 'Jesus loves me!' can change that. Jesus does love you. God loves you; you are a son of God like anyone else. But like any Father, our Father in Heaven has rules, expectations and guidelines; when we stray from this, and start to say 'It's okay, he loves me!' although you're right, you're also justifying something contrary to the word of God.
Sam Allberry, a gay Pastor, did a much better job explaining this than I ever could in his book - 'Is God Anti Gay?'. It's a little book, but you can buy it here. He speaks about his personal experience, how to approach this issue as a Christian, and speaks directly to people like yourself who think it's Biblically OK. Fantastic book.