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u/GRISHA319 · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

tl;dr the West has two heads: A Christian one, and a rational one. The Christian one led to the Dark Ages, war, and poverty. The rational one led to its twin sisters, the scientific method and free markets. The Christian one has been pushed back but has held onto the moral code of the western world until the modern day. A bloody, naked man nailed to a cross for sins he did not commit, and the Las Vegas strip cannot both be ideals in the same mind at the same time. Holding both of these ideas makes us unpredictable, dangerous, and crazy. We have to pick: Capitalism, or Christianity.

Well Socialists follow Christianity in terms of ethics. Quote:

"These moral values, Marx observed, are “as old as the Judeo-Christian tradition. But their acceptance for social organization—their social realization—would be new….”

In other words, the difference in moral values between Christianity and Communism is that the Communists intend really to live by the principles that the Christians merely preach.

Marx was actually quoting the Apostles when he wrote his slogan "each according to his ability, each according to his need":

Acts 2:44-45, "All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Thomas Moore was a Saint in the Catholic Church who wrote the book "Utopia". In it he gave an outline for what a propertyless, classless society would look like. He was even lauded by Marx and Engels.

"Praised by Marx and Engels, the Soviet Union in the early twentieth century honored him for the purportedly communist attitude toward property rights expressed in Utopia.[7][8][9"

Hegel did not reject God so much as decide that humans, when undergoing a metamorphosis into the nation state, would become a kind of "world-soul", which as you said replaced God with the State without missing a beat.

I bring up Calvinism not because of anything specific to it but just because it does explicitly what most Monotheistic religions usually only imply (other than their ideologically pure versions seen in groups like the Wahhabists or the Pentacostals).

Christianity comes from a philosophy known as Platonism. In Platonism, our knowledge of entities, concepts, and especially ethics comes to us from a noumenal/alternate dimension, which our normal senses cannot access. That is to say the human learns about the world from a supernatural source.

This metaphysics (and epistemology) was kept in varying degrees of purity from Plato's time until the Enlightenment, at which time the Aristotelian (pagan) metaphysics was (re)discovered and promptly allowed the creation of science, music, art, political freedom etc (although Aquinas did help precipitate some of the debates). That's another story.

Under Platonism, the human mind is effectively impotent. Or put better the mind is passive. Concepts arrive at it not through an individual, volitional, act of abstraction. All knowledge is delivered from another dimension, in a degraded and often unintelligible, subjective form.

This is at the root of all "Revelation" religions or "Monotheistic" religions (Yahwism from now on): "The Divine" reveals information about the world to "The Chosen", who then either spread this knowledge to the "Unchosen" or "Profane" or infidel, or act out his will directly:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 "

This also has to do with the character of God himself, who is by definition, outside of time and space (the relitavistic modern physics dumpster fire is the most recent take on that concept). This is in direct contradiction with Pagan religions where the "Gods" were often seen as "natural"; They represented some aspect of nature. Most of the God's were superhuman, but not supernatural per-se. They all followed the laws of reality. This is one thing about the left that I like: They trust sense data... Just not the concepts concepts formed from it.

Because of this Platonic thought process, is it any wonder that Plato created the blueprint for all totalitarian political systems in history?

Based on his own epistemology, he decided that people must be divided up into castes of gold, silver, bronze and clay. Led by a group of (likely) secret sect of philosopher kings. Yahwism divides the world between the elect and the profane.

IS it any surprise that a group of people called Neo-Conservatives used Plato's Noble Lie as a founding principle of their movement? And that they specifically mobilized the fundamentalist Christian power bloc specifically on Plato's recommendation?

>Wahhabism (Arabic: الوهابية‎, al-Wahhābiya(h)) is an Islamic doctrine and religious movement founded by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.[a] It has been variously described as "ultraconservative",[1] "austere",[2] "fundamentalist",[3] or "puritan(ical)";[4][5] as an Islamic "reform movement" to restore "pure monotheistic worship" (tawhid) by devotees;[6]

^ This is where the west is heading if we have a big war or economic crash. Reason or Faith. Capitalism or Christianity. You cannot serve two masters.

>According to Robert Lacey "the Wahhabis have always disliked the name customarily given to them" and preferred to be {called Muwahhidun (Unitarians).[53] Another preferred term was simply "Muslims" since their creed is "pure Islam".[54]

These two metaphysical positions represent the conflict at the heart of the western world: The Yahwist (Christian, Platonic, Mystical, Totalitarian) side and the Pagan (Atheist, Aristotelian, Rational, Libertarian) side. This rabbi sums it up:

"Strangely, this may have worked to humanity's advantage in one regard: The Greek mind applied itself to figuring out the material world. When your belief system begins with Divine revelation you don't necessarily apply yourself to mundane matters of how things work (LOL COMMUNISM). So technological (economic, political, artistic, philosophical) progress became chiefly the domain of the Greek mind throughout history.

...Torah is an understanding that behind the world lies a Divine Will, unhampered by the limitations of nature or human logic — because it is the source of all this. Why are there laws of nature? Because G‑d generally chooses to work in consistent ways. Why did history unfold the way it did? Because that is all in G‑d's plan."


He gives away the totalitarian nature of this system,

"We can have a thousand reasons for not mixing meat and milk, but when it comes down to it, we do it because that is our personal connection with the Divine Will, the Life of All Things. And that is the victory of Chanukah"

Any wonder how we ended up with 300,000 pages of bullshit laws?

All these people want is for you to surrender your mind. That's it. That's what O'Brien was after in 1984. He wanted Winston to say the direct opposite of what physical reality told him. THIS WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF 1984.

Anyways Yahwish, or National Socialism, or Marxism all follow the Platonic Metaphysics. In Marxism, the Divine Revelation is imparted via your economic class:

There's "Bourgeois Truth" and "Proletarian Truth". There's "Aryan Truth" and there's "Jewish Truth." Platonism is a form of radical subjectivism: The truth depends upon the person hearing it. There is no way that these systems can avoid being totalitarian: It's baked into their metaphysics.

This dynamic of Yahwism empowering a small elite is summarized well in this short book:

This Platonic worldview held by many people often leads to often hilarious exchanges between believers and non-believers:

The debate almost invariably grinds to a screeching halt when the Christian points out that all knowledge is subjective, and that the Atheist is simply relying on his fallible, human sense to approach the world when he is viewing reality through the Divine:

The Christians ARE the ones being completely logical in this situation: These people debating are often leftists, and to a leftist, all concepts are arbitrary. The Christian says "great! So all sense data and knowledge of reality is subjective and arbitrary too! But guess what? God (or the party/Fuhrer) does know reality!"

Unironic "checkmate athesits".

Shane Killian did an entire series showing how Religion and Statism both make the same errors:

u/veriworried · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

Brink Lindsey has a new book called The Captured Economy that goes over this.

The Captured Economy: How the Powerful Enrich Themselves, Slow Down Growth, and Increase Inequality

And an episode of EconTalk on his book.

>Kevin Carson and I'm hooked

(Me too! I've been listening to him while at work lately!)

Another great source would be to look up libertarian philosopher Roderick Long. He writes for the Center for A
Stateless Society (where Kevin is) and the Bleeding Heart Libertarians blog (; he also writes a good amount on the labor movement and has a paper (however I haven't read all of it) called Towards a Libertarian Theory of Class that might give an insight into his work (I'm not as well read on him as I would like, but you can also find some lectures of his on youtube, like this one How (and Why) to Be a Free-Market Radical Leftist).

I think in general you could read libertarian economists as this is a common theme, maybe some of Friedman's work, etc.

If I run across something today, I'll try to edit to let you know, but hopefully this will help get you started.

Edit: You might be interested in this talk given in the 90's at the Institute for Humane Studies (Race, Class, and Gender | Roderick T. Long, Jacob T. Levy, David E. Bernstein, & R. Richard Geddes)

Found an article Long wrote: Corporations versus the Market; or, Whip Conflation Now

u/GingerJack76 · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

>Do you have a source for this? These seem made-up to me.

Hunter, John E.; Hunter, Ronda F. "Validity and utility of alternative predictors of job performance (1984)

Neisser, Ulrich "Intelligence: Knowns and unknowns" (1996)

>IQ changes and is impacted significantly by your environment.

Okay, it's your claim, prove it. My claim is that IQ is largely genetic, and any environmental factors degrade IQ.

>I disagree, and I think science is on my side. Some snippets:

This is a misunderstanding of the Flynn Effect, which can go in reverse as well. The Flynn Effect looks at the generational differences with IQ and not individuals. Over time the human race gains, and loses, IQ to adjust for what is most optimal, when you look at individuals however, you can't raise IQ through environmental means.

Really though, this is a big faux pas on your part, you should have realized that looking at individuals and averages over the course of decades is going to produce different results.

>Additionally, he goes on to describe how IQ varies across tests because they test different things,

Literally not related to the argument we're having. I'm not about to argue whether or not IQ is real, not unless you want to fight a 100 year old paper that is still being cited today and is the basis for all of psychology (we still use his methods today). We can argue about the tests, but IQ is a thing.

>I'm not going to go through all of the research, but the consensus seems to be that "IQ" is largely dependent on your environment.

None of what you have provided has shown me that and any psychologist would laugh you out of the room if you said that. It's not, otherwise anyone could be Stephen Hawking. IQ is the processing speed of your brain, you're basically saying that humans have the miraculous ability to make their brain process information faster just by trying really hard and practicing, that's not increasing IQ, that's getting better at the test, which funny enough you mentioned before.

>I completely disagree with people like Stephan Molyneux

Guilt by association. We're talking science. I studied psych, I know what I'm talking about.

>No, I'm looking for a system that removes as much inequality as possible.

That makes you a progressive. I'm in favor of rights, you will eventually have to pick a system that maximizes freedom or equality, you seem to pick equality, in that case you are not a libertarian.

>There's a big leap between "capitalism might not be the best system" and "let's give a regime complete control over everything like the USSR, maybe it'll be better this time".

That's because there is no other system. The presuppositions you lay down will lead to that.

>My point here is that capitalism has its flaws in providing for the ideals you and I both hold.

And my point is that these are unsolvable problems.

>Yes, you've been trying to change my opinion to match yours, and frankly, I don't think your opinions are more valuable than my own.

Okay, you won't change your mind. I can't sit here and try to convince you of what is right and wrong when you don't believe there is a right or wrong. Have a good day.

u/chewingofthecud · 3 pointsr/AskLibertarians

It's a pretty big tent. It's hard to point to one place.

There's a good community here in r/DarkEnlightenment. The learning curve for DE (AKA "neoreaction") is pretty steep, so perhaps a good place for the libertarian to start is From Mises to Carlyle.

There's also Hoppe. Many libertarians get skeptical about democracy and venture beyond libertarianism via him. Even Rothbard, in his later writings, started going in a somewhat Hoppean direction. Maybe try Democracy: The God That Failed. Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn is another along these lines.

Bertrand de Jouvenel is another gateway drug. He's a classical liberal whose description of how power works utterly undermines classical liberal ideas of sociology and anthropology. Try his On Power, and then follow it up with The Patron Theory of Politics for a tour through the illiberal consequences of his ideas.

Jonathan Bowden was a great English intellectual who gave a series of lectures on various illiberal thinkers such as Heidegger, Evola, Carlyle, Spengler, Pound, Nietzsche, and even Marx and other socialist thinkers. He functions as a sort of TL;DR for the illiberal right, and so makes for a very good introduction. His lectures are engaging and can be found on Youtube, but probably the best of them is a Q&A he gave about his own views.

u/speedy2686 · 2 pointsr/AskLibertarians

You’re welcome. I also want to share this book with you: Kindly Inquisitors.

u/t3nk3n · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

Probably not. But you also have a positive obligation to do most things that liberal democratic states tell you to do.

u/tryptronica · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

For a scary look at how close we've come to accidental nuclear detonations, check out the book [Command and Control] ( by Eric Schlosser or the [documentary] ( based on it. These systems or similar ones still exist and the chance of an accident is non-zero. The fact that nothing serious has happened yet is due to the incredible safety system built into these machines or dumb luck, depending on how you look at it.

u/indirecteffect · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians

Some of Mises' work on this topic would perhaps be more informative, but for something shorter/simpler, consider the following: [Tom DiLorenzo's The Problem With Socialism]

u/noodles0311 · 15 pointsr/AskLibertarians

Would you rather have your landlord be able to send you off to die in war and be both judge and jury if you got accused of a crime, or do you like a volunteer military and having 12 peers be your jury? To anyone who legitimately thinks things are no better than during the middle ages, try reading Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress

I guess the definition of centralization needs to be discussed as well. A lord would be your military leader, judge, legislature, essentially your whole government. Is that decentralized just because his geographic span of control is small?

u/DVHeld · 1 pointr/AskLibertarians
  • Property rights enforcement: Americans have examples of this. Read The Not So Wild Wild West for a bunch of examples (cattleman's associations, miner claims, etc.). Basically a mix of self-defense, private/communal Sheriffs and Marshalls, private courts (like medieval English tort law), private insurance agencies, private guards, and some other stuff. In many cases there might not even be a need for this because of extremely low crime, but the exact mix of means would vary dependent on context, culture and preferences.

  • Private courts. There are plenty of current and historical examples of this, including the aforementioned medieval English private courts that handled torts.

  • "National" Defense: First, there is no "preventing". Crime can't be perfectly prevented, and the same goes for an invasion. Prevention has a cost and there is such a thing as "too much resources devoted to prevention". What exactly that means can only be decided in the market, the same as with production of any other good and service.
    Second, it's extremely rare for a State to invade a territory that has no State. Almost always an invasion occurs in order to attack another State. But it can happen, so it's perfectly reasonable to ask what would happen in that case. As there is no "country" to be defended, with a defined territory, one has to think a bit differently about this. To me, it's basically the same as dealing with regular crime, but on a bigger scale, so basically one could extrapolate from there and imagine associations between security firms, insurance companies, etc., more or less similar to a joint venture, but with the purpose of pooling resources and expertise in order to deal with a bigger aggressor instead of for dealing with a bigger investment project. For this kind of businesses (and property owners, etc.) defense against an invading army would basically be very similar to a business investment, maybe seeing it in that way helps you to think about this problem.