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> Thank you for taking the time for explaining things for me. I can understand what you mean about perfectionism, I will have to give it greater thought.

Of course! My intention was never to force anything on you, but to make a suggestion based on my knowledge and my perceptions. I'm starting to think my perceptions may have been off, but I'll continue for the sake of the conversation. I'm not about to pass up a chance to go over this stuff, it helps reinforce the knowledge for me as well, and to know when I am wrong is also a valuable experience.

> You brought up a very interesting point about type four under stress, however in most circumstances people pleasing is a natural thing for me but if I'm extremely uncomfortable/awkward then perhaps it shows through even more. In the video I felt very comfortable complimenting Kaylia and felt it was fitting.

Well, if your compliment was genuine, then that is certainly not people pleasing. People pleasing is inherently superficial—when a person says something just to get a positive reaction with no weight or authenticity behind what they said; that is people pleasing.

> Would you be able to clarify the bold section that you said reminded you of me? I'm unsure as to how you picked that up.

I suppose I was a bit vague with that. So when I quoted that, it was in reference to when you mentioned feeling defective and flawed, and being "self-analytical", as well as what I personally observed in how you seemed to hold yourself. You seemed to be connected with your feelings, they seem to flow freely from you, rather than being all bunched up and repressed as is typical of a type one. Type ones are not generally known for being very emotive—positively or negatively speaking—they generally suppress all of it, and it tends to show in their demeanor. So, by combination of what you said and what I observed, I felt as though you still have a good connection to your feelings, but that you don't let them control you, which is more akin to a type four. So a lot of it was me reading between the lines, so to say.

There is another passage from a different book that I want to share with you. It is from The Enneagram of Passions and Virtues.

> The passion of this point of the enneagram is encompassed by the word anger, but what that term signifies is something much more broad than simply feeling peeved, resentful, or outright enraged, although these are certainly frequent emotional experiences for Ennea-type Ones. As is true of all the passions, what is meant is a general attitude, in this case one that Ichazo characterized as “standing against reality,” or as Naranjo elaborates, “a rejection of what is in terms of what is felt and believed should be.”2 This is an attitude, then, of reacting against what reality presents us with.

> Those familiar with the enneagram know that the personality style of Ones is oriented around a conviction that things are not right as they are, and that they should conform to a One’s idea of how they ought to be. The attitude or feeling tone arising out of this belief, then, is an oppositional hostility toward what is. In Ones, this aggressively rejecting attitude is seldom as out front as the designation of this passion—anger—suggests. These are people in service of the good, the ethical, the virtuous, and what they deem to be the correct and proper, who take the moral high ground in whatever sphere of life they are involved in. They tend to be politically and spiritually correct, suppressing what does not accord, and so end up chafing under their excessive self-control. Because of this, their angry attitude manifests typically as an intolerant, critical, and resentful atmosphere rather than an overtly hostile one. In this sense, resentment best describes their characteristic reactive atmosphere.

> As Almaas notes, “In resentment, there is aversion, which is made up of anger and rejection toward your experience.”3 This belligerent attitude is not simply a rejection of how things are but also a forceful attempt to make things conform to a One’s inner picture of how they ought to be. This manifests in a One’s tendency to point out and attempt to correct the perceived faults of themselves and of others, and may extend to trying to make the world itself conform to his or her idea of how things ought to be, often with the sense that if everything were perfect, then he or she could finally relax.

The reason I share this is because the internal experience for type one is based around bottling up this anger, and feeling resentful that things aren't right, that things aren't conforming, and being somewhat forceful about insisting that they do. You came across to me as a person who is relaxed... and this is coming from a person who has seen you across, what was it? 9-10 minutes of your life? So I am certain that it must be true. :) <- See, I can be funny sometimes!

As a side note and digression:

Oh, there was one other little correction I wanted to make about something you were thinking about: that accuracy with words thing that you attributed to Ni, is actually something more attributed to introverted thinking (Ti—it is sometimes referred to as the accuracy process for this reason) in the tertiary position of a cognitive stack.

So, again, you certainly know you better than I, so even if I am wrong, hopefully this can clarify and enforce your position as a type one. Oh, one last thing from the previous book (you may find this more relevant than my previous quote from it):

> REMEMBER THAT ONES TRY TO ESCAPE from their fear of being condemned by striving to be perfect. They see themselves as fair, reasonable, and objective, although others may see them as rigid, dogmatic, and overly critical. Ones believe that if they discipline themselves sufficiently, they can avoid making mistakes. Being human, however, they do make mistakes—obliging them to struggle ever harder to organize and improve everything in their lives. If they see that others do not share their idealism, Ones increasingly become unable to control their anger about having to do everything themselves. If Ones continue pushing themselves toward "perfection," the repressed parts of their psyches explode, leaving them enraged and irrational.

> ONES CAN ESCAPE THEIR TRAP by acknowledging and releasing their unrealistic expectations of themselves and others. They begin to understand that the standards by which they judge the world are not absolute truths. As Ones recognize the subjective quality of many of their positions, they begin to respect the beliefs and values of others. Without the constraints of perfectionism, their vision opens to a reality more mysterious and more perfect than they could ever have conceived.

Hi, Type 4 as well.

This book (Enneagram Transformations) is brilliant at looking at the integrations and using concepts like positive affirmations to help wire the brain in a positive context.

>now it's gotten to the point where I judge others harshly for not being as "special" as I am

From my understanding this is our Jealously for what we perceive we dont have within ourself. This is an important point to remember.

The said book above or anything really that will help reinforce the positive..

Self-esteem and self-confidence will develop only from having positive experiences, whether or not you believe that you are ready to have them. Therefore, put yourself in the way of good. You may never feel that you are ready to take on a challenge of some sort, that you always need more time. (Fours typically never feel that they are sufficiently “together,” but they must nevertheless have the courage to stop putting off their lives.) Even if you start small, commit yourself to doing something that will bring out the best in you.

As i mentioned above about "what we perceive we dont have within ourself". This is important because this is where all the change start, and it CAN be as simple as just stop being judgemental. The less we do it, the less our brain will be wired to think like this. I talk from personal experience. Being a Four.

Im a type 4 too###

I too used to judge very Harshly for others that were not as Unique or special ..this led me to be very arrogant and superior... for me i just decided this was something i didnt like about myself. Being judgy was at its core, (subconsciously) secretly coveting what others had. This all ties into the Four's fantasy world, of what or who we think we are (or Ideal self)...

I just had to start accepting who i am. Embrace my uniqueness but at the same time, accept that it is perfectly ok to be like everyone else. Im no better than this person or that. Realising that i don't need to always be sooooo different, special etc. If anything, this realisation has really helped me not be so harsh on others, and most of all im more loving and accepting of myself. (We are all a Mirror)

Advice###

> I'm not sure how to stop and it's not as easy as just stopping. Advice?

Your already on your way to stopping. The mere fact that your thinking about this, and wanting to change it is the first step.

Identification and Ownership.
"You cant change what you dont own"
Now you've realised this. It becomes a choice to stop or to continue consciously. So i ask, how do you think you could stop this negative behaviour? It doesn't matter if its right or wrong, what idea appeals to you? ..Follow that, and see what happens.

Some other points about the Type Four###

• Accept that wholeness and realness exist now in the present moment
  
• Practice self-appreciation based on what is present and not what is absent, on what is rather than what isn’t
  
• Resist domination by strong and fluctuating feelings while acknowledging their authenticity
  
• Sustain a steady course of action even in the presence of intense feelings
  
• Appreciate the ordinary instead of deeming it as boring
  
• Disconnect your self-esteem from the need to be special or extraordinary

Howdy Holon,

Rohr has many books (more than 20 I think), but I've only found one specifically dedicated to the enneagram: The Enneagram, A Christian Perspective. If you have any experience with Christianity, this book does a nice job of explaining how the enneagram can be used to assist the Christian journey (i.e. a return to wholeness). But if Christianity doesn't attract you, the way Rohr teaches Christianity really doesn't require any more from you than to believe you can return to your original state (before our 'fall into sin'), then you can delve as deeply or shallowly as you wish into the other beliefs. But I digress.

I've only read his latest few books, but I've found each one enlightening, helpful, and challenging all at the same time. I'm actually quite confident that you could pick a book of his at random and get something very useful out of it.

As far as studying the enneagram itself, I can only recommend it highly. The subject is deep, dynamic, and revealing. I've been studying the work of enneagram teachers for about a decade now and new insights about it's utility seem to appear more and more quickly. Every time I've taken a step deeper into understanding it, I always (and joyfully) discover it seems to go even deeper. For me, it's basically been an experience of drinking from the fire-hose of self-knowledge and I've loved every moment of it.

Yeah I'm not a huge fan of tests at all. They usually somehow come up with how you behave in a vacuum, which doesn't get to the heart of the Enneagram: your deepest motivations. Two different 4s may act completely differently, but have similar motivations. I don't think I have read the book you're referring to, but I would warn you to stay away from descriptions that don't take instinctual variants (self-preservation, social, and sexual) into account.

Beatrice Chestnut and Sandra Maitri are, by far, my favorite Enneagram authors. The two "biggest" people, Riso and Hudson, move away from what the Enneagram is really about and their descriptions are kind of larger-than-life (ex: 7s are always go go go without rest, can't stay at home for 24 hours, and have no self-discipline, whereas, realistically, 7s can find stimulation in many non-active things such as their imagination and they may not even always seem "busy" in the conventional sense - they can be "on" and "off" just like anybody else; 2s are just "helpful" whereas, realistically, they mold themselves to be lovable based on what they perceive others to find lovable, so they may not try to be "helpful" at all, depending on who they're around). Chestnut and Maitri also give good descriptions about how different instinctual subtypes within a single Enneagram type can make people so different, while their "overall" descriptions encompass each type's motivations pretty well.

Sorry that I rambled, but I hope that this helps. I'd highly recommend reading all of this book before deciding on a type for sure. You can get a free trial on Scribd and find it there, or you can buy it. There are also excerpts from the book found on the Internet for each individual subtype, but I cannot recommend reading the whole thing enough.

Yes, yes, yes. If you're an iphone user I recommend the app called Breathe that will walk you through what to do. I also recommend "Silence" by Robert Sardello, and "Finding God in the Waves" by Mike McHargue of Ask Science Mike and The Liturgists fame (link to their enneagram episode). In his chapter on prayer McHargue goes through 3 forms of 'christian' meditation (which I'll pm to you immediately after posting this.) and Sardello speaks on the mystery and comfort in the companionship of Silence (meditation/the holy spirit/the tao).

I recommend the latter for this reason, "Among the things learned is the way out of the confines of the oppressive nature of our egotism, which takes innumerable forms, the most impressive being that of acting as if one's religious demeanor, acquired by reading and even studying what the mystics have experienced and the theologians have theorized about, qualifies one as a lover of Silence." There is some portion of your '3w2-ness' that pushes you to seek efficacious loving and acceptance, helping your S.O. here and at the same time fulfilling some ego fixation in the process.

Sorry for the unsolicited thoughts, hopefully the above resources point you to some peace!

7's are some of my favorite types! Eric Andre is probably my favorite 7w8. Here are the sections from Personality Types about 7w6 vs. 7w8 (warning: very long)

The 7 with a 6-Wing: "The Entertainer"

The traits of the 7 and those of the 6 are in a certain amount of tension with each other: 6s are oriented toward people, while 7s are oriented toward things and experiences, quite capable of fulfilling their own needs themselves. In both types, however, there are dependencies; 6s depend on finding approval and security from others, while 7s depend on the environment to make them happy. People of this subtype will attempt to find satisfaction for themselves, while looking to other people as additional sources of stimulation and happiness. 7s with a 6-wing are perhaps the most gregarious and outgoing of all the subtypes. The adventurous search for experience in the 7 combines with the desire for security through connection in the 6, and the mix produces individuals who enjoy encountering and interacting with other human beings. 7s with a 6-wing are more relationship-oriented than 7s with an 8-wing, who tend to be more
experience-oriented.

Healthy 7s with a 6-wing are highly productive individuals with an infectious joie de vivre. They can be noticeably playful, childlike, engaging, silly, and despite difficult experiences, tend to retain a certain innocence and belief in life's goodness. They can also be highly creative and entertaining—as the subtype nickname suggests—and tend to have a more positive outlook on the world (like Nines) than the 7s with an 8-wing. They often have quick minds and an inspired sense of humor, but when, healthy can utilize the 6's discipline, cooperative spirit, and organizational abilities to accomplish a great deal. While they are essentially assertive, they also want others to like and accept them. If they have money, they tend to be generous with others, particularly in their socializing, party giving, and traveling. They use their optimism and high spirits to connect with others and forge bonds with them. People of this subtype have a soft, sweet side which can be very appealing. They are a kaleidoscope of contrasting traits—ingratiating and sassy, vulnerable and resilient, spontaneous and dependable, adult and childlike.

Average 7s with a 6-wing may still be productive, but the 6-wing's fears fuel the tendency of the 7 to lose focus and become scattered. They have problems with insecurity and are more aware of their anxieties than the other subtype. 7s with a 6-wing can often appear to be nervous and flighty, revved up and fidgety, and they tend to have more trouble with follow-through than 7s with an 8-wing. Average people of this subtype are defensive and impulsive. They want approval and are afraid of being anxious or alone, and have high expectations of their paramours. They want to be loved and they fall in love easily. But they also fall out of love easily as soon as the romance has worn off. Being in love is a powerful experience, which average people of this subtype enjoy having: they are always either in a relationship or looking for one. They can still be quite funny, but an underlying note of anxiety is closer to the surface. They may act like cheerleaders, attempting to rouse others and create a more exciting environment, but often become excessive and, to others, tiresome in the process. When others do not meet their expectations for stimulation, the 6ish tendency to sulking and pessimism may come out. Lower average 7s with a 6-wing become caught between the 7's desire to move on to "greener pastures" and the 6's fear of losing their safe connections with others. They are gregarious but insecure about what people think of them; impulsive but anxious about their decisions; extravagant yet anxious about money. As their anxieties increase, people of this subtype tend to become increasingly insensitive toward others, without being aware of it. They also become self-centered, demanding that others help them through bouts of anxiety. Thus, for better or worse, while the 6-wing softens the 7's aggressive nature, it also reinforces its anxiety. As in the 6 with a 7-wing, there is a strong propensity for substance abuse

Unhealthy 7s with a 6-wing display the erratic, manic qualities of the unhealthy 7 along with the fearful, clinging qualities of the 6, and engage in a restless search for "playmates"— people who will be "coconspirators" in their misadventures and keep them distracted from their mounting fear and distress. They want to have the approval and affection of others, and will likely experience acute problems with inferiority and anxiety, traits which are problems for each of the component subtypes. They will turn to other people, tearfully but obnoxiously demanding that others solve their problems for them. They may stay up night after night, staying on the telephone or hanging out in nightspots with anyone who will talk to them. If this does not work, people of this subtype become hysterical and helpless, alternately thrashing around and lashing out, driving away others and seeking to bring them back to their sides. This subtype is also highly prone to self-destructive behaviors and dramatic, masochistic episodes, such as suicide attempts. Eventually, overwhelmed physically and emotionally, they succumb to addictions or completely break down.

The 7 with an 8-Wing: "The Realist"

The traits of the 7 and those of the 8 produce a personality combination which is very aggressive, since each component type is aggressive. Persons of this subtype are aggressive in two ways: in the demands they make on the environment and in the strength of their egos to enforce those demands. No one frustrates people of this subtype without hearing about it. They are extremely assertive and industrious, and are also more goal-oriented, pragmatic, and ambitious than the other subtype. They use their drive and high energy to maintain an intense, active lifestyle, and are less worried about having others around for the ride. Their ego strength is considerable, and the 8-wing provides more focus on tasks and objectives.

Healthy people of this subtype are exuberant and enthusiastic, since they are fundamentally 7s. They are people who truly enjoy the world and the things it offers—materialists in the broadest sense of the word. They enjoy the good things of life and combine the 7's avid intelligence with the 8's daring and drive in a way that often results in material success. The 8-wing adds elements of self-confidence, willpower, and self-assertion to help them overcome obstacles and endure whatever hardships might be in their paths. This subtype also has a capacity for leadership. Persons of this subtype who are leaders are known for their quick minds and the brilliance of their personal style. They are noticeably adult, earthy, businesslike, persistent (especially with difficult tasks), tenacious, and give an impression of bemused worldliness. 7s with an 8-wing know that they can get what they want from life: they think strategically and can rapidly reorganize their internal and external resources in pursuit of something they want.

Average people of this subtype are more practical, worldly, and cosmopolitan than 7s with a 6-wing. They apply their energies in many directions, multi-tasking or even "multi-careering." The 8-wing adds a degree of workaholism not as evident in the other subtype. They seek out intense experiences of all sorts, enjoying the rush of adrenaline they supply. There is also a stronger desire to accumulate possessions or "toys"—new cars, fine clothing, jewelry, stereo equipment, TVs, and other gadgets. The subtext is "I'm worth it!" Of course, 7s with an 8-wing also enjoy travel and new experiences, but focus more on activities than on socializing with others. People of this subtype are certainly not immune to romance but tend to be hard-nosed realists about their relationships. They are not afraid of being alone, and are very clear about their needs, expectations, and weaknesses. Their directness can verge into a crude bluntness in the lower Levels, and less healthy 7s with an 8-wing are not above "pushing to the front of the line" to get what they want. They make their desires known, and pursue them with less regard for the needs, desires, or feelings of others, and sometimes without regard for law or morality. Individuals of this subtype do
not try to avoid conflicts; indeed, the reverse is usually the case: they are stimulated by confrontations because of the excitement which conflicts produce. They begin to adopt a jaded, world-weary attitude in contrast to the childish, hyperenthusiasm of the 7 with a 6-wing. They are also stronger willed, resisting anything that might control them, and are therefore somewhat less likely to succumb to substance abuse than the other subtype. At the same time, they tend to be more hardened and willful than the 7 with a 6-wing.

Unhealthy 7s with an 8-wing suffer both the 7's compulsive mania and the 8's destructive antisocial tendencies. They tend to involve themselves in dangerous scenes in the search for escape from their anxiety. Gambling, involvement with the underworld, extreme sexual practices, and "living on the edge" rapidly deplete their physical, emotional, and financial resources. They can become ruthless, particularly if they believe someone has what they want, whether a person or a thing. Because unhealthy 7s fly out of control and unhealthy 8s overestimate their power, unhealthy people of this subtype are extremely reckless and dangerous. They may become physically destructive when they act out, with possibly devastating effects for others. Their erratic behavior can quickly lead to circumstances which result in either death or mental breakdown.

Sure, step one, be gentle with yourself. The majority of people in the US are probably 6s. I dated 6 for eight years. Sixes have some really, really awesome qualities––they have a keen intuition for worthy authority figures, and they can have the decisiveness and strength to take down authority figures who aren't doing a good job.

I recommend listening to this podcast, or at least the relevant section for you. I also recommend the book The Wisdom of the Enneagram.

You can also read this website's description of the 6. Read about disintegration and integration, as well. In other words, when you're healthy, you start to take on some characteristics of the 9. When you're unhealthy, you engage in some of the behaviors of the 3. Read about those numbers, too. Then read about your wings––5 and 7. You'll pretty quickly see what applies to you and what doesn't.

Here's the beauty of the enneagram (if you hold it loosely! this isn't the end all in your life): it gives you a roadmap for coming through your weaker qualities by showing you what you naturally have the potential to do. It also can shed some light on deep truths in your life, truths that you might otherwise might avoid or never know.

> I had read that Integration happens when you're healthy, but yet my aforementioned cold angry outbursts tend to happen more when I'm less healthy

It's because conventional enneagram sources are misinforming about integration being "a good thing" and disintegration being "a bad thing". Not completely their fault, since in a way these processes were mis-labeled. You don't fall apart when you "disintegrate" in enneagram, or become some kind of enlightened version of yourself when you "integrate". It's actually the health levels of your core type that will determine where you will end up in respect to integration and disintegration types. If you're at low levels at type 4, you will integrate to low levels of type 1 replete with angry outbursts, feelings of annoyance and hypocritical criticalness. But, if you're at high health levels of 4, then you'll end up at high level of 1 full of discernment, fairness and wisdom in regard to any situation. This was mentioned in Wisdom of Enneagram book, and many times on the now defunct Enneagram Institute forum, that integration and disintegration are merely horizontal reshuffling, and it's going up the health levels where the true progress lies, so say a type 4 at a lowish health level #6 from this description:

"Type 4 at Level 6: Gradually think that they are different from others, and feel that they are exempt from living as everyone else does. They become melancholy dreamers, disdainful, decadent, and sensual, living in a fantasy world. Self-pity and envy of others leads to self-indulgence, and to becoming increasingly impractical, unproductive, effete, and precious."

..will end up integrating to type 1 at this same health level--and this doesn't sound much like any kind of growth or self-improvement:

"Type 1 at Level 6: Highly critical both of self and others: picky, judgmental, perfectionistic. Very opinionated about everything: correcting people and badgering them to "do the right thing"—as they see it. Impatient, never satisfied with anything unless it is done according to their prescriptions. Moralizing, scolding, abrasive, and indignantly angry."

Somehow it's a lot easier to notice if you've been "acting up" in the neighboring intg/dis types than within the core type. Maybe this is because we're so used to living in our main type, so set in its ways, that you'll notice that something is wrong only when you start reaching out to other types, but this is also a great way of figuring out your health levels within your main type.

Another rather important thing that most enneagram sources won't mention either is that enneagram types have subtypes. Type isn't really this narrow area that contains everyone of that type, but it's more like a distribution that stretches from integration to disintegration types. Thus there are 4's who with a 1 subtype, and then there are 4s with a 2 subtype, and the two will present rather differently. The subtype becomes like a secondary type that the person resorts to in many situations and "wears on their sleeve" so to say, so it's easier to notice it as well as mistype into it, or even mistype into any other type because if the subtype is strongly expressed (far end of distribution) the person doesn't quite feel at home within their core type, and may even relate to the descriptions of the subtype type more strongly. Ultimately, for those who have strongly expressed integration or disintegration subtype it's better to approach themselves like a mixture of types. Sure you'll have your core type to work on, but the subtype type will also have prominent expression in your life so it's better not to ignore it, accept and acknowledge it, and work on it too.

> One time when I suddenly started going off on a rant about how annoying one of my former co-workers was, I really surprised one of my friends

Pretty much why 1s end up with 9s as friends or SO's so frequently, is that 9s teach 1s to be more all-accepting and laid-back, and then that annoying feeling of annoyance with other people starts to disappear, among other things.

That stuff about sentences being accurate systems and important for Ti makes me lean towards Te. If it gets the job done then it doesn't really matter. I get how you are trying to say that 5s are usually detached and Ti-heavy but the descriptions are coming from the sx variant of 5s. Why I keep coming back to it despite what you're saying is because I do not at all think that my core motivations line up with the 4 description from the Enneagram Institute:

>Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance

>Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)

In SX 4s the core motivation is envy, and its manifestation is competition. I do not see much of myself in that. But I do see myself very much in the core motivations of the 5:

>Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable

>Basic Desire: To be capable and competent

It doesn't refer to a pursuit of knowledge, just competence. Competence can be applied to knowledge and systems but also to hoarding/greed (which fits with the core motivation being avarice) of resources to survive/not feel like they are being overwhelmed.

 

Also the 5w4 sx quotes are from this book and Naranjo's profile of instinctual variants.

>SX-4

>Shameless. Even if it's shameful, I will still get what I want, do anything to satisfy my desires. The more I complain, the more I get (this strategy works well as child, but not as adult). Viking ENVY, cannabalistic drive, competitive hate. Oral aggression - wishing mixed with anger. Sin of Cain - I envy you therefore I kill you. If I envy wealth, I start a revolution. Hateful, outspoken with anger, envy as competition.

>SX-5

>Not easy to see the difference at first. But if you engage them in conversation long enough, you'll find they are passionate about the one person (usually someone they can't find). Search for absolute love and it's too hard for others to pass the test. Very easily disappointed. Looking to trust in another - the one that will be with you and for you no matter what, beyond the level of marriage vows. Romantic. The non-5 among 5s, though not completely apparent until you touch the spot.

It is a very different description compared to the SO-5 and SP-5. Even without complicating everything by comparing descriptions and looking at the correlating Jungian functions , only looking at the basic fears and desires still points to 5. I have no issue with being a 4, but I do have issues with settling with any type when another type can explain things equally or even better than my supposed type. Naranjo's descriptions do state that 5s are more monochromatic and 4s differ more widely with their instinctual stacking, but I still cannot identify as much with 4 SX, SO or SP from those descriptions. The most applicable one would be 4 SP but again, not 4's basic fears and desires.

 

>"I feel my best when in a tornado of intense feelings involving others, whether good or bad, it is invigorating, jarring and life-giving in a way that I am not just floating and content. I feel moved and intense, which I greatly enjoy"

I just feel my best when I am in that state, I am not constantly in that state nor do I actively seek it out. While yes, it fits well with the 4w5 (no instinctual stacking) description, it also fits very well with the 5w4 (SX) and even more so when the core motivations, desires and fears are taken into account. This is the main dilemma, I think. And I agree that at this point, reading too much into the descriptions may overcomplicate it. Your insights are helpful, thanks.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0787908703/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1466551952&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=narcissistic+family+system

Have you read that book? It helped me a lot. It gives an objective take on the simple dynamics that arise in a "narcissistic family system". It's technically distinct from NPD because it looks at the family dynamics surrounding a narcissist rather than at the narcissists themselves. It held a lot of truth for me. This new situation for you will probably require you to explore the situation with your mother again as that stuff is one of the deepest layers to peel back to, so an objective re-exploration of yourself through that lens may be helpful.

And thanks! Most people commiserate not congratulate when I share that, so it's nice to hear from someone who knows what it's like. The way I explain it when people react by saying "I'm sorry, that's really terrible" is this: imagine having a 100lb weight tied to your ankle for your whole life. It's always been there, and you just assumed it was part of your body. Now imagine one day, you decide to take it off. Is that sad?" It's a vast oversimplification, but is more or less accurate.

In terms of the ugliness, I'll just say keep exploring yourself and keep searching for deeper truth. It seems like you're doing that already, and aren't questioning that path, I just wanted to affirm it. It's the right thing, and it will guide you to the answers you're looking for and to the happiness and clarity you're seeking. Trust that you'll get through the short term, because you will, and you will come out smarter than before.

The double life thing: basically when I was a kid I withdrew and experienced my real pleasures internally while putting on a mindless act for my parents in the physical world. As I grew and became more independent, I still maintained the act, but increasingly had places where my parents had no eyes or ears. My conversations with them had nothing to do with what I felt, even though I spoke with them often. I was split between the life I projected I was leading to them and the life I was leading for myself. It wasn't a clear line distinction because I would only dare stray so far from the projected life patterns in my "private" life, but the line was there nonetheless. I think this divide helps lead 9's to drugs, etc. in other cases, though I never got much into that kind of thing.

Do you know your mbti type btw?

> Facets of Unity: The Enneagram of Holy Ideas.

I just ordered a sample! This looks really promising!

And if I haven't recommended it already, please check out "https://www.amazon.in/Into-Great-Depth-your-Being-ebook/dp/B075FXLGXF/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1559051498&sr=8-1" - Into Great Depth of Your Being.

The focus of this book is to outline how one can bring about tiny changes in one's being or establish a practice to have sustained changes.

Insights from MBTI / Enneagram can be translated into interventions from this book, so this speeds up the process of growth.

Any ways, interestingly, all growth speeds up if one has a steady exercising routine.

I would mostly what you said is spot on about 9's. However, one of the biggest challenges about us 9's is that we merge or take on the traits of the other numbers. Honestly, we can see ourselves in almost every single number.

When I was figuring out my number, my initial thought was that I was a 2 because I absolutely love to serve others. Then I did some more digging, and I thought I was a 6 because of how loyal I am to the people around me. Then a friend starting asking me some questions about how I handle emotional pain that led her to thinking that I was a 7. Then I got into an argument and was being super combative, only to be told that I displaying 8 traits.

After all of this, I was SUPER confused about what I was. It took me forever to finally nail down that I am 9. My friend (a 7) recommended The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery, and everything just fell into place.

A lot of the book is rather spiritual, and the authors have roots in the Christian faith, but essentially they talk about the Enneagram, trying to help you figure out who you are and what you dominantly identify as. They specially have an opening section for each number, where they list 20 things that each number does, and it helped me zero in towards a couple of my potential numbers.

I also found this little interesting bit:

> While Type Twos are in conflict with their sadness and Threes underdo grief, habitually numbing out their feelings so they don’t get in the way of their goals, fours overdo an attachment to grief. The three heart types also share a central concern with image—a self-consciousness about how they might appear in the eyes of others. While all three types in this triad have a formative, underlying need to be “seen,” they each act this out differently based on the ideals they try to fulfill in order to be recognized and appreciated by others.

Chestnut, Beatrice. The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge (p. 270). She Writes Press.

This might help distinguish your feelings from one another.

Sorry if I am not much help.. I'm still learning too.

Heres the way, and it's really the only way: you work on detaching yourself from your idea of who you are. Being self-aware and confident in yourself aren't the objectives here, and if you go down that road you'll just swap one ego for another and end up in the same trap. You aren't a 9, you just think you are, and it's this concept that binds you to the pattern of being a 9. Three things that will help:

1. Self Inquiry and other forms of vipassana meditation that forces you to try and find this "self" you've attached to.
   
2. CBT: challenge your thinking and behaviour patterns to dissolve the attachment you feel to "who you are" and free yourself up to become more spontaneous and present.
   
3. Study the enneagram thoroughly, which you seem to be on the path of already. Use it to learn how and why we attach to these "characters" in our heads, the ways in which we do, the various types you resonate with and how you're triggered into these identifications. Most importantly of all: stop settling for the 9 "low hanging fruit". Every type has low hanging fruit, yeres is roughly that short term comfort of feeling like your contribution doesn't matter and so ye can let yourselves off the hook.
   
   Feel free to PM me to discuss more.

I think this is from the book The Wisdom of the Enneagram and after you get your letter combo, you’re supposed to do the questionnaire for the type that is 20 or so questions. Then there is a range that suggests you are: likely that type, may have a wing or a parent of that type, could be a commonly misidentified type, or aren’t likely that type (or something along those lines). I had to do literally every single type questionnaire except for, like, 7 and 9, and ultimately figured out I was a 4w5 by reading the whole book and another book called “The Road Back to You.” But then again, that’s a pretty standard experience for a 4 to not know who they are and feel like they don’t fit in, right?

I'm curious about what kind of answer you're hoping for. I'm really not being critical of it. I've just noticed that you post about relationships a lot on /r/mbti, /r/enneagram, /r/infp etc. and it's always questions of a similar nature.

Sort of related: if you haven't read it already, I highly recommend this book. The section on 4s is pretty great and definitely provided me with a lot of insight. Fair warning though, the section about how 4s develop in childhood and the information about the unhealthy levels may make you feel a bit of despair about our type. It threw me off for a few days.

edit: sigh what's with the hair-trigger downvoting?

Last spring, I spent three months reading the entirety of The Wisdom of The Enneagram and designing graphics in a Chicago Starbucks for my graphic design senior thesis.

I designed micro-compositions (what I've been calling them) for each type based on my research, as well as small format logos, posters outlining the relationships between types, and business cards that users can keep in their wallets for tough times.

I am by no means an expert, but I tried to be as accurate as I could.
Here are some of my other posters if you want to read more about the mission, and here's the test I made to fit on a business card.
Feel free to comment or message me if you want to talk!

I would suggest that you read this book and you make get a more in depth idea of the two types. My partner is a classic 9 and i'm a classic 4 (we both fit the types earily well) so I have a pretty clear idea of how each of them can look. It does sound like you have some aspects of both, but the motivations and fears of each type are pretty different.

Let us know if you figure it out! :)

Asking others is not a preferable method of discovering your type. Read all of the type descriptions closely, and if that doesn't do it for you, nonjudgmentally examine your behavior over the next few days. It can be a process, but the only one who can really type you is you.

Edit: I'd recommend using the Enneagram Institute's book, The Wisdom of the Enneagram if you can get your hands on it.

I just joined reddit and this was the first place I came. I'm not sure what that says about me but hi! A friend introduced me to the Enneagram, I got this book, and I've also been listening to Enneagram for Idiots podcast. I find this all so comforting and compelling!

Cool! Close then :) I guess it also helps that you are a SX.

Here is the contents page of Handwriting Analysis: Putting It To Work For You.

In search of a complementary one I tried Handwriting Psychology which was a lot cheaper if you have downloaded kindle. Here's its contents.

I haven't found one. I don't usually like personality quizzes, instead preferring to read up on type summaries from various sources and make my own determinations. I know that doesn't work for everyone, though.

The one quiz I did like was the one from this book, which actually has a separate 15-question quiz for each type. You answer statements with numbers from 1-5 based on how strongly you relate to the statement, then add up your totals. Something like this could help you figure out a tritype; it would usually come out to be your top number in each triad, and your highest of those three is likely your core. This worked for me, my wife, and my brother. (The highest of the two numbers on either side of your core would likely be your wing.)

If you can't get a hold of this book (it's a seriously good resource if you're interested in the Enneagram!), you could try doing something similar with online quizzes: just find your highest score from each triad, and then read up on descriptions of that type and see if it fits you, and how well. You can sometimes find overall descriptions of different tritypes, but they aren't consistent in my experience.

This one

It's a great complimentary book to the official Riso-Hudson book. She doesn't address wings, but she goes much more in-depth to the sx/so/sp variants (which probably correlates to a wing anyway) than any other author. Like a 4w3 is more likely to be an sx or so than an sp.

In my experience there’s a huge variety in the subtype descriptions out there.

I’ve found the best source is this book by Beatrice Chestnut.

I also find this one incredibly helpful.

As a four still working on the confident thing.

https://www.amazon.com/Calibans-War-Expanse-James-Corey/dp/0316129062

The Expanse is an amazing sci-fi show too that I can not recommend enough if you like sci-fi.

Checkout The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram. https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Dimension-Enneagram-Nine-Faces/dp/1585420816

Helped me figure out my number and wing (5w4) and has great sections on the childhood experience of each number which resonated with me.

The best way to find out is to read about it. Richard Rohr has a book on the Enneagram from a Christian perspective. It helped me figure out my number. (I think it is helpful even if you aren't a Christian). If you want something more modern, "The Road Back To You". I haven't read it but the authors have a podcast that has also helped me a lot.

Edit: I would also add that you shouldn't worry just yet about your wings, instinctual variants (so/sx/sp) or tritype until you really know what your core type is. Once you start to become more self aware by finding and discovering more about your type, all of that will make more sense later.

Read the book: Secret dimensions of the Enneagram. Link here: https://www.amazon.ca/Spiritual-Dimension-Enneagram-Nine-Faces/dp/1585420816


I learned about the Enneagram almost 10 Years ago in a class I took at this new age, Reiki type place. I was always interested in self discovery, astrology, etc., so when I learned about this system it was just so much deeper to the core. So I highly suggest reading more on it before trying to type yourself. I was really in a stressful place, so I was identifying as a 6. When I read this book and started to read about the type 9, I realized that 9 goes to 6, when stressed. So it all came together. Hopefully you enjoy the journey. It will improve your relationships the more you start to understand people in your life that handle/act differently than you do.

Hi OP, in my experience the very best beginner book for the purposes of trying to be a better/deeper version of your type is Sandra Maitri's book The Spiritual Dimensions of the Enneagram.

https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Dimension-Enneagram-Nine-Faces/dp/1585420816

https://www.amazon.com/Character-Neurosis-Integrative-Claudio-Naranjo/dp/0895560666/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526093323&sr=8-1&keywords=Character+and+neurosis

Personalitycafe forums also have pretty much the whole chapters in each type sub-section. Usually stickied. The actual book is worth it though.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/

I'd talk to a good counselor/therapist about it primarily, in order to stay away from self-diagnosing. But here is a book that I've found on a subject: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Unaffirmed-Recognizing-Emotional-Deprivation/dp/0818909188/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550759268&sr=8-1&keywords=healing+the+unaffirmed+recognizing+emotional+deprivation+disorder

You can also google for scholarly articles on "emotional deprivation."

I recommend "Personality Types : Using the Enneagram for Self Discovery" by Don Riso and Richard Hudson. https://www.amazon.com/Personality-Types-Using-Enneagram-Self-Discovery/dp/0395798671

beatrice chestnut's book is the most comprehensive i've found.

​

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Enneagram-Paths-Greater-Self-Knowledge/dp/1938314549

You might be interested in the work of Helen Palmer. She has a section in that book that analyzes each relationship pairing, including their highs and lows.

The Enneagram: A Christian Perspective
Richard Rohr is a very thought provoking writer. From what I remember, Ebert and Rohr have been personally and professionally using the enneagram for something like 30 years.

Here is the mobile version of your link

Was it this one? https://www.amazon.com/Path-Between-Us-Enneagram-Relationships/dp/0830846425/

• Buy Riso's book
  
• avoid the internet, it's mostly people rambling and speculating

Personally my preferred first book on enneagram:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395798671/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3?pf_rd_p=1944687502&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0970382405&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0YZZ2AN1MGNJAGWWYWQX

The only downside is it can come off as having a somewhat negative focus on the pathological sides of the types, with the healthier states seeming very idealized. Nonetheless invaluable in my opinion.

You could use the different Triads to determine your core type.


Intelligence Triads - Feeling vs Thinking


Feeling Triad (4): Primarily concerned with the development of a self-image. Have common problems with identity and hostility. Problems with identity stem from a rejection of one's own authentic self in favor of a persona that is believed to be more acceptable in some way. Respond with hostility whenever one's crafted identity is not validated. Highly concerned with issues regarding self-esteem, personal value, appreciation, and shame, and with getting others to validate the self-image that has been created. (Key words/phrases: self-image, stories, emotionality, holding on to moods, adapting to affect others)


Thinking Triad (5): Primarily concerned with finding a sense of inner guidance and support. Have common problems with security and anxiety. A pervasive fear or anxiety arises from a profound feeling of lack of support. Find solutions to gain some degree of security as a defense against fear. Cannot get mind to simmer down. (Key words/phrases: mental chatter, figuring it out, strategies, doubt, anxiety, fear, anticipation) Source


Harmonic Triads - Reactive vs Competency


Reactive Group (4): React emotionally to conflicts and people and have difficulties knowing how much to trust others. In conflicts, they want the other person to match their emotional state. They also need to deal with their feelings first, and usually once they are able to do so, things can blow over fairly quickly and permanently. This group also has difficulty balancing their need for independence and self-determination with their need to be nurtured and supported by others. They are either looking for advice and direction or defying it. Specific to the 4: They seek a rescuer who can understand them and support their life and dreams. They want to be seen. They fear abandonment and that no one will care for them. They also fear that they will not have enough support to find and become themselves. They deal with others by limiting access and playing "hard to get" to keep people interested in them, as well as hold on to their supporters.


Competency Group (5): These people deal with difficulty by putting aside personal feelings and striving to be objective, effective, and competent. Subjective needs and feelings are put on the back burner; they try to solve problems logically and expect others to do the same. This group also has issues related to working within the confines of a system or structure. They are not sure how much they want to give themselves over to the values of the system, and how much they want to withhold themselves from it. Specific to the 5: They emphasis being the expert and having deep information. They focus on the process, objective facts, and maintaining clarity and detachment. They manage feelings by splitting off and abstracting them. They also stay preoccupied and cerebral, as if their feelings were happening to someone else. They relate to systems by rejecting the system and wanting to work on their own, outside of it. They have little patience with rules or procedures. Source


Dominant Affect Triads - Frustration vs Rejection


Frustration Group (4): Never seems to be able to find what they are looking for; they can quickly become disenchanted with whatever previously seemed to be the solution to their desires. Specific to the 4: Fours are frustrated that they have not been adequately parented, and unconsciously expect valued others to protect and nurture them. When others fail to live up to their unrealistic expectations, Fours become frustrated and disappointed.


Rejection Group (5): The self is seen as small, weak, and potentially victimized, and others are seen as powerful, abusive, and rejecting. This group goes through life expecting to be rejected and so they defend themselves against this feeling in various ways. They repress their genuine needs and vulnerabilities, attempting to offer some service, ability, or resource as a hedge against further rejection. Specific to the 5: They feel negligible, on the sidelines of life, and therefore must compensate by knowing something or having some special skill so useful to others that they will not be rejected. Fives reduce the pain of rejection by cutting off their feelings from it. Source