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> You may think the cost difference between them is trivial, but it absolutely isn’t. The Tesla destination charger is only great for people using Teslas. I agree that Tesla offers quite the steal there, but it isn’t representative of the market.

Tesla to J1772, or charger with the J1772 end.

It costs as much to dig the ditch and rip out the wall for a 12 gauge 20A 240V. Your other points are correct if they have to drop more meters and put in more breaker boxes, though a $20 20A breaker doesn't cost much less than a $30, $50 not on sale, 100A breaker. The wire seems easy enough to calculate, 20amp 4.8kW would be around $0.49 a foot, 40amp 7.2kW is $1.05 a foot, and 100amp would be $4.95 a foot. Maybe aluminium 180amp for $1.35 a foot to a subpanel would make things cheaper for longer runs? Can you just turn aluminium into copper right before the charger, assuming the charger can't just use the aluminium?

> If a lot of hotels aren’t currently providing 19.2kW chargers, it’s for good reason.

According to plugshare, which I can't filter by max power, clicking around looks like 90% of HPWC at hotels support 16kW, some 6kW or 8kW. So your statement is correct, though these hotels aren't only 7.2kW either.

> EDIT: On second thought, I don’t think you even read my comment. You just responded to only the last paragraph like it was some kind of tl;dr. There was so much more nuance to that comment.

I did read it all but your 1MWh example was (an Appeal-to-Extremes)[https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/30/Appeal-to-Extremes] and didn't want to point it out. Still if you want to talk about it: 200kWh seems very likely for trucks and I would expect closer to 300kWh for a dually. Since 19.2kW is the limit of J1772 that is where I am getting the number from and to your point a 300kWh still wouldn't be able to charge from 10% to 100% but 50% charge is better than 19%. I think Semi will have 1-2MWh but I doubt we will see the J1772 plug on them except maybe to run living area stuff and bms. If Semi do support AC then they might use SAE J3068 3 phase 120A 277V so 57.5kW? but really even a 150kW supercharger might take 8hr+.

As for your comment about 3 decent 7.2kW vs 1 19kW I can't disagree there, why not have 4 19kW that can share 1 line that could very well cost less than 4 independent 7.2kW. I thought I showed that is possible at least for the price of the charger. You could still configure those same HPWC to 7.2kW and share to save a little money on wire and possibly the power provider needing the upgrade their lines. At that point though you might as well run a 20A 120v outlet to every spot to help keep batteries warm. Any hotel that doesn't have a charger I ask if I can use their light pole 120v, really helps prevent a cold soaked battery in the morning even if I only got ~20 miles of range on a 10F night.

Not sure how my comment has a lot of nuance to it, maybe since I had linked to that charger with J1772 like 3 times in other replies so far and thought it was common knowledge here that you can charge any car with an adapter I left those links out, sorry. I wan't trying to personally attack you, I am just giving my option with what I think will be best for all in the long term for overall cost and user experience. It is like I see a lot of USB-PD 5v 3A being installed because everyone is using cell phones but soon laptops are coming out and they will need to buy new 5A wires and adapters. I could be wrong and the statement about if it makes a difference where people stay one day is the speculation here. Interesting times ahead for sure, I can't wait.

I have been batting around the idea of building an EV myself for a long time. I have a DIY electric motorcycle which is a fun project and gets commuting use occasionally but is mostly for fun. The way things are now, though, I really doubt I would build my own EV for any reason other than fun. There are so many cheap, cheap used EVs on that market that just work without all the headaches of a DIY project (believe me- they will ALWAYS have headaches- you will never, ever have 100% reliability with a DIY EV). Used, degraded-battery Leaves or i-MIEVs would meet your needs and are available for less than $8000 in many places. There would be no AWD/4x4, but I suspect that either of those cars with good snow tires would perform well in the snow if the roads aren't covered with all 18 inches.


Would modifying an EV scratch your DIY itch? Perhaps adding some heating capacity to a Leaf or i-MIEV. I have thought it'd be a good project to add a propane heater to an EV, like this one, which I own. It provides instant heat, does not produce carbon monoxide, and is safe to use indoors. The tip sensor would be the one tricky bit- it shuts off if tipped even slightly and going around a corner or accelerating/decelerating could do it. I wouldn't prefer a diesel heater because of the smell and fumes, personally, whereas the propane one is odorless. I have the hose to hook mine up to a 20lb barbecue tank for use in the house during power outages. The other problem would be moisture buildup- the propane gets turned into CO2 and water- and that water will want to turn into condensation in your windows. Still worth trying, I think. Maybe I'll try it in my Prius sometime.


If you REALLY want to build your own snow-monster EV, I would start with whatever gas vehicle would be your choice for the conditions. Since your range requirements are so low, choosing a light, aerodynamic vehicle isn't as important. Don't go for a land-barge though- maybe an older Jeep Cherokee (XJ) in good condition, or a compact truck with 4x4. Compact pickups have been popular for EV conversions because of the easy mounting for the batteries. I'd be partial to an older vehicle with fewer computers, and probably 4x4 with a manual transfer case rather than anything AWD since I suspect that'd be more complicated. Again, I would caution you that unless you are extremely technically savvy, building your own EV is going to be a challenge of finding and fixing all the little problems that will, in all likelihood, take years to sort out and be a constant time-drain. I won't say it's impossible, but do want to advise you about the kind of commitment you'd be making for building and debugging.

Edit: Which Jeep

For GM it was a completely dollars and cents decision. As some have commented, it was related to the change in the ZEV mandate but, if they had been profitable or highly sought after, they would have kept them in production. In the end automakers are (or should be) fuel source agnostic. That said there was no vision for the future nor appetite for large investments for an uncertain ROI. That's why it is usually start-ups that change industries: Netflix, Amazon, and of course Tesla. High risk, high reward. Legacy companies want low risk, high reward.

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I sometimes think that we are better off that GM ended the EV1 program. Had they kept building an interesting but uninspiring, short range EV with a lead acid or NMH pack, would we have over 1M EVs in the US by now? It is a counterfactual that no one can answer.

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Recommending reading. I thoroughly enjoyed. The Car that Could

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Thanks to OP for posting.

Siemens VersiCharge is cheaper than the Juicebox Pro 40, will charge almost any non-Tesla EV at its full speed, is just a plug-in install (not hard wired) with a nice long cord and attractive design, and has a 3 year warranty from one of the best equipment manufacturers in the world. Made in California, USA. Amazon can have it on your doorstep tomorrow.

https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-US2-VersiCharge-Installation-Compatibility/dp/B00MFVI92S

> Natural gas and renewables are much cleaner than coal, but a lot of peoples' power is still coming from coal.

That's not how the grid works dude. Your post covers about 5% of the actual picture here. It's late, you'll have to read some books, I don't want to get into this now. But read these: (The Bin Wu one is fucking amazing, read it twice)
http://ca.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470593652.html
https://www.amazon.ca/Analysis-Electric-Machinery-Drive-Systems/dp/047114326X

This wouldn't hurt:

https://www.amazon.com/Power-System-Analysis-Design-Fifth/dp/1111425779/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JWX7BQ73ZBNN7BCED44E (I have the 3rd edition, but the content is more or less the same)

Source: EE (CEAB)

EDIT: Oh! My point was...total shitpost on your end

I got one of these 7 months ago. Price on Amazon fluctuates, they have a warehouse used item for $386. I bought new for $409, seen it go as high as $440 or so. Also saw a Home Depot add for a refurbished unit for $379 recently.

The Siemens unit is 30Amp, some other units are 32A but considerably costlier. The 2A difference is probably just a couple of minutes with a PHEV, it charges my Bolt from 40-90% in 6 hours or less typically.

It is simple but reliable. It is rock solid and should last many years, so a used or refurb unit should be good as new.

Chances of sales on L2 EVSE are probably more likely around Earth Day than the holidays.

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Do you have a private natural gas field? I don't. In fact, there is very little (9.4 billion m^3 /year, falling) natural gas production in my country.

Do you think that natural gas is inexhaustible? I'm afraid this pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gas#/media/File:Global_Giant_Gas_Discoveries_1900-2000.png is only slightly lagging this pattern https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2F7b96d2ba-f14a-11e6-8758-6876151821a6?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600

> The only reason hydrogen was considered

To widen your very narrow view, check out https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527312757/ -- it addresses some of the issues of hydrogen economy.

Allow me, someone who has two ChargePoints mounted in my front yard because I lack a garage and have a parking pad, to explain why this design is actually brilliant. The Amazon listing states:

>In order to save electricity, the light will dim when you move away from the charger.

Low light transmittance is very much the reason I opted for the ChargePoints over basically everything else in 2016: they have minimal lights, which was a requirement for this rather out in the open installation (I don't want to attract attention). The design is also rather bland, which tends to go over well with McMansion owners. It just blends into the wall.

NEMA 14-50 is one type of plug commonly used for EV's, rated up to 50 amps. Looks like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-279-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00009W3AA/ref=asc_df_B00009W3AA/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198089608681&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16570288418637110563&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032168&hvtargid=pla-357917644205&psc=1

There are other 240 V plug types too. For example, here's a 30-amp rated variety:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-30-Amp-125-250-Volt-Black-Indoor-Round-Wall-Dryer-Power-Outlet/3775477?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-RoughPlumbingElectrical-_-WiringDevices-_-3775477:Utilitech&CAWELAID=&kpid=3775477&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=2842&k_clickID=1738a1cb-ecda-4ae2-ab8c-92e4d9e66678&gclid=CjwKCAjw0oveBRAmEiwAzf6_rMEamS_g0FUQVn0Ab7_8o_9ioCAqVKn0_PeesKxkZNWaTW5bjbFJzhoCAUoQAvD_BwE

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You'll definitely need to lug the cable around in your car, unless you can leave it at work. But as \u\ChalupaCabre mentioned, there are some fairly cheap ones you can buy, such that you'll have two.

Same link, but with Amazon SMILE


Costs you nothing to use Amazon Smile but gives so much.


Here's an extension to have it always convert your amazon.com to smile.amazon.com

> I think you'll agree that things like hydrogen from coal should be avoided and methods like solar hydrolysis should be the primary if not the only method of producing hydrogen

That's the only kind of H2 I've ever supported, thanks to this book: Solar Hydrogen- the fuel of the future and this video: Who's killing the Hydrogen Car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GDjVskYIs

It is fully connected Smart EVSE with V2G capability - the specs are on the amazon page https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T32RMJ2?fbclid=IwAR2SHHayTJtbIEqRpTk2MV3kpKUxsvNrSrh_PAZ5TtvXXyDs6YkcATWl0bk

I've got this one that I use for my C-Max.

But I can't really recommend it exactly; it was suggested by someone on the C-Max forums, and I didn't want to worry about whether the instructions to set up the battery readings would differ by product or if others had the same functionality. I also don't know if instructions exist for setting up for the Volt. (I had to "program" it specifically to read things like the SoC and battery temperature by entering a bunch of numbers that were posted up on that forum.)

If you don't have to pay to charge at work, why not charge there? At home you still have to pay for electricity.

Also what adapter are you are you using? Something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-Tesla-Charger-J1772-Adapter/dp/B07V7V2QT8

>only toyota is really doing commercial hydrogen

And Hyundai, Honda, Mercedes, Nikola Motor and most importantly China. More FCV's will be sold in the next 5 years in China than the rest of the world combined. You should ask yourself why the hydrogen news from China isn't being talked about.

Solar Hydrogen: The Fuel Of The Future <--- the authors had it figured out long ago

I would not run a car charger through any direct contact meter. If the meter dies you may looses your ride to work. Consider something like https://sense.com meter that clamps around the wires. It may be overkill but would probably work well. Sense can measure the whole house and identify each appliance.

A lower price option (still 3X your device) clamp meter + wire splitter in also bought section

Wire splitter

You need to get the wire splitter to get just the live wire.

If you are ok charging from a 120 volt outlet, you could offer to buy a Kill-a-watt power meter for $20 and report your usage to the landlord or at least use it to keep track and verify what he charges you.

https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-5696-Gear-Puller-3-Piece/dp/B000NPT698

Siemens 30Amp EVSE, NEMA 6-50 plug, $475 on Amazon

I've seen it for $390 at Costco.

How about a long-shackle padlock locked to your bike. The charge cord could pass through the shackle preventing someone from removing it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004Y8CE/

I have one of those Mr Heater little propane heaters for camping so I put it in my car if the day should come that I NEED the heat but cant afford to turn on the cabin heat. It actually heats very well but propane also gives off a lot of humidity so it fogs the windows too. Have to heat with the windows slightly open which is a bit counter productive.

Early adopter problems, eh?

read 'Let My People Go Surfing', there are plenty of decisions that they will make as an automaker that will be like the following,


A - larger (but legal) environmental impact but higher profit margins
B - lower environmental impact but lower profit margins.


Which do you think a company with a history of literally cheating to get around environmental laws will pick..?

It's a book rather than a study, but there's "Clearing the Air" https://www.amazon.com/Clearing-Air-Beginning-End-Pollution/dp/1472953312 . It looks it the pollution issue from a health perspective and causing respiratory issues. Even if emissions were the same, moving the focus of emissions from vehicles to power plants that are further away can still result in much more breathable air. As a disclaimer, I haven't read the book, just watched an interview with the author on Fully Charged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JGjk6Y5a4

He needs some of these bad boys