Reddit reviews War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage



The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (and talk on it here)


I haven't got around to reading these books yet, but they seem to say that when you look at the historical archeological evidence, the % of people who die in conflicts has been going down, and societies that killed each other with clubs, poisoned arrows, etc. actually killed a higher % than current societies do with high powered weaponry and bombs. I think the problem is that there's news media reporting everywhere these days so you might get the impression that violence is everywhere/getting worse.



From the video of the talk I linked to, this slide is pretty interesting: http://www.edge.org/images/sp-Slide011.jpg

War Before Civilization lays out a persuasive case that the premodern era was a very bad place to be - violence and war were endemic problems.

This is a PDF of a TED talk by Steven Pinker showing that warfare and violence are declining. Audio here.

That's just false. I'd ask you for your source, but I don't think a "gut feeling" would count.

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/07/143285836/war-and-violence-on-the-decline-in-modern-times

http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage is a good book on how "peaceful" non-Europeans actually were.

Was something unclear? If you think my view of primitive societies is biased, I could recommend you a feature on a people of the Amazon rainforest here as well as the excellent book about hard archeological evidence The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence Keeley, who himself had a fairly rosy perception of indigenous societies when he began his career.

Conflict certainly occured, as there is archeological evidence of tool based injuries on some specimen of early man, but it is difficult to define such conflicts as "war" as war has a connotation of conflict involving at least one state or civil authority against another entitiy.

For more on this topic see Myth of the Peaceful Savage, by Keeley

Organised war? Sure it was more common after agriculture.

But tribal peoples skirmish constantly and raid each other like it's going out of fashion They have very high interpersonal violence rates.

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage

Easy to digest.

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage
http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Virnibot has detected a misspelling or incorrect use of grammar in your comment.


> I am also a white devil and tbh I think only morons idealize the culture and advancement of whites without looking at the blood that was spilt to propogate it, white people colonized and enslaved millions throughout history to get to where we are today. However the only people that think 18th century china were backwards are also morons and I doubt that they opened a single historical textbook.
>
> That being said, human nature is violent and opportunistic, you can't judge our ancestors with the world view of today, their simply wasn't the infrastructure in place for people to be co exist peacefully in the same manner as today. There was no antibiotics, no internet, no welfare, no democracy, limited legal and policing systems, no easy transport, no supermarkets the list goes on and on. Without these systems in place, people become greedy and mistrustful of each other.
> If one cut on your knee can get infected and kill you, leaving your family destitute and the average life expectancy was 30 then people are going to act alot more sociopathic, it becomes about survival, like actual life or death survival.
>
> The reality is human history is dirty and messy and violent, and pretending that any race or ethnicity is innocent from that is completely ignorant, its in our genes to be opportunistic and violent, its evolution and natural selection at work. We only became largely peaceful in the last 50 years because a) we developed to such a degree that working together economically was in our better interests than military and b) the deterrant of nuclear war and mutually assured destruction
>
> I recommend you read the following books: http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126
>
> Basically how all human societies are violent and
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449043242&sr=1-1&keywords=guns+germs+and+steel
>
> This book gives the reasons why civilizations rise and fall and why European culture became the dominant one post 19th century
> Essentially there are deterministic factors that are needed for any culture to prosper and white people inherited them all just because of geography and luck

• You wrote alot which should have been a lot
  
  
• You wrote propogate which should have been propagate
  
  
  <3 Good day Courtesy | Of | User Virnios
  

BrazenBull: ^^original ^^reddit ^^link

I don't need to "sound" smart. I'll leave that up to the scholars, such as Harvard Professor Steven Pinker. Here's his TED talk about the violent nature and yes, barbarism of the so-called "noble savages" in a pre-Colombian world.

If that doesn't do it for you, I invite you to check out anthropologist Lawrence Keeley's book, "War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage"

Or perhaps "Constant Battles: The Myth of the Peaceful, Noble Savage" by the archaeologist Steven LeBlanc (also of Harvard!!).

>I was merely pointing out that the idea that the NAs were peaceful, environmentally-friendly earth-children is grossly over-simplified.

The Myth of the Peaceful Savage.

No Japan didn't change their flag after WW2. And by "revolution", did you mean the very revolution that massacred and terrorised its own people (the Vendée)? Obviously the French don't reject their glorious revolutionary heritage in order to denounce their colonial past. Shame to Australia self-denial.

While I haven't read much about Australian Aboriginal history (still educate myself on that topic), I am more educated about the history of Asia, colonial and pre-colonial. What I am sure is that the natives didn't fare better under non-European tyrannical monarchs than under foreign colonial regimes.

And while dying by smallpox or by guns is no different to the natives, it is very different when judged by the intent of the colonial power. Equating germs with genocide, therefore, is dishonest. The colonisation of Australia is far from genocide.

About the devastation of tribal wars, I suggest you read War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage.

Yes, because I can write a dissertation here. You’re a racist. Get woke: https://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Everything's amazing and nobody's happy.

Sure, things aren't perfect, but they're a lot better than most people make it out to be.

I can buy a plane ticket, and take part in the miracle of human flight--I can sit in a chair, flying through the fucking sky, and travel across the world in a few hours. It astounds me that people don't find that more amazing.

If I want to, I can engage in internet discussions like I am with you right now. We can use electrical impulses and waves of light to send videos to each other from across the world. Holy balls!

Meanwhile, we are getting closer and closer to being able to use biomedical implants and prosthetics to give disabled people new limbs which they can use just as well as the ones nature gave us. Hell, some of them are even better.

Do we have wars? Yes, but violence has always been part of human nature, and in fact, we are probably less violent now than most primitive societies were

Is there environmental damage from our lifestyle? Yes, but they are far from causing doomsday scenarios that many alarmists like to concoct.

Overall, I'd say this is a great time to live in. In my opinion, those who insist that humanity was much better off in the days of ancient tribes and primitivism are no different from the republicans who call for a return to the "good old days" of American traditional values. A return to a time that never even existed.

> In the meantime, you don't even have a list to copy, haven't cited a source

Yeah, did you miss the part about the invention of writing? We rely on archaeological evidence to indicate the presence of native american wars, genocides, and massacres.

>and don't seem to know that mesoamerica was one of three places where written language was independently developed

Oh please, written language was isolated and rare in the Americas and you know, now you're grasping at straws with your school-boy pedantry.

>I'll admit my post didn't take a lot of work - but the fiction you're spinning takes no work at all until you bother to back it up.

Why should I back it up when you just keep moving the goalpost?

I don't need to "sound" smart. I'll leave that up to the scholars, such as Harvard Professor Steven Pinker. Here's his TED talk about the violent nature and yes, barbarism of the so-called "noble savages" in a pre-Colombian world.

If that doesn't do it for you, I invite you to check out anthropologist Lawrence Keeley's book, "War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage"

Or perhaps "Constant Battles: The Myth of the Peaceful, Noble Savage" by the archaeologist Steven LeBlanc (also of Harvard!!).

I am also a white devil and tbh I think only morons idealize the culture and advancement of whites without looking at the blood that was spilt to propogate it, white people colonized and enslaved millions throughout history to get to where we are today. However the only people that think 18th century china were backwards are also morons and I doubt that they opened a single historical textbook.

That being said, human nature is violent and opportunistic, you can't judge our ancestors with the world view of today, their simply wasn't the infrastructure in place for people to be co exist peacefully in the same manner as today. There was no antibiotics, no internet, no welfare, no democracy, limited legal and policing systems, no easy transport, no supermarkets the list goes on and on. Without these systems in place, people become greedy and mistrustful of each other.
If one cut on your knee can get infected and kill you, leaving your family destitute and the average life expectancy was 30 then people are going to act alot more sociopathic, it becomes about survival, like actual life or death survival.

The reality is human history is dirty and messy and violent, and pretending that any race or ethnicity is innocent from that is completely ignorant, its in our genes to be opportunistic and violent, its evolution and natural selection at work. We only became largely peaceful in the last 50 years because a) we developed to such a degree that working together economically was in our better interests than military and b) the deterrant of nuclear war and mutually assured destruction

I recommend you read the following books: http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126

Basically how all human societies are violent and

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1449043242&sr=1-1&keywords=guns+germs+and+steel

This book gives the reasons why civilizations rise and fall and why European culture became the dominant one post 19th century
Essentially there are deterministic factors that are needed for any culture to prosper and white people inherited them all just because of geography and luck

Seriously? This is anthropology 101. Just what part would you like backed up?

slavery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

cannibalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism_in_pre-
Columbian_America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy_Wash ( one site, there is now many more sites with evidence of cannibalism and full on massacres)

genocide/war
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/thanksgiving-guilt-trip-how-warlike-were-native-americans-before-europeans-arrived/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_Empire aztecs by most descriptions were more brutal than european nations could have dreamed, they conquered much of mexico in only 2 centuries. They expanded their empire with brutal force. Less than a million aztecs ruled over 20 million subjects. They would routinely execute/sacrifice their conquered foes. Estimates range from as little as 5,000 a year to more than 100,000 people sacraficed a YEAR by the aztecs and mayans.... Was probably closer to 10,000 year on average. Though there were "special" years and festivals. One alone is estimated to have killed between 4,000 and 80,000 people in a four day period.... Totally not brutal or war like at all...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Civil_War Possibly as many as half a million soldiers and 100,000 deaths. Probably not the biggest war to happen in native Americas, but the one we've got the best evidence for as it happened at the same time the spanish were first starting to explore south america, but happened before they'd reached the andes, though small pox had already reached that far. Mind you they had such a big empire too because they conquered and exterminated their rivals.


http://westerndigs.org/evidence-of-hobbling-torture-discovered-at-ancient-massacre-site-in-colorado/


This is all things that have changed in the last 20 years or so, its still not "common public knowledge" exactly because of the reactions and downvoting im getting here actually. It's "racist" and unPC to say this shit, but the people actually studying it discuss it all the time. What other sources would you like exactly? Would you like me to dig into my text books, and my field logs? I think i actually might have pictures here of human bones with butcher and processing marks.


If you're interested in not being a PC jackass that avoids inconvenient historical and cultural facts. This book isn't perfect, but its not a bad start.

http://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126