Reddit reviews Love and Responsibility

Peace be with you! I recommend you check out your local chapter of the Courage Apostolate. This is a ministry for same-sex-attracted Catholics, as well as their friends and families. It will be full of other gay catholics trying to live as Christ teaches, experiencing many of the difficulties you are (for example, what/when/how should I tell my family?). It is not a "pray-the-gay-away" program.

I don't know how knowledgeable you are about catholic teaching with regard to human sexuality, but now is a good time to read up! Try the Catechism of the Catholic Church and documents it cites, Karol Wojtyla's (later Pope John Paul II) Love and Responsibility, and Theology of the Body for starters. I also recommend not just skipping to the "gay" sections. Catholic teaching on tougher issues make a lot more sense in the context of the whole of the teaching - picking and choosing parts to read can leave knowledge gaps that lead to confusion and frustration.

Above all, remember that God loves you.

I'd recommend a number of titles, many of which are free:

Since you already have a foundation in Christian thought, I'd recommend Introduction to Christianity (hint: not actually introductory level) by Joseph Ratzinger. It's pretty theologically dense, but that man is one of the most profound theologians of his generation, and this is his first masterpiece.

If you are interested in morality, particularly in issues of conscience in relationship to subjectivity and objectivity, I strongly recommend Conscience and Truth, by Ratzinger as well (free online).

If you are interested in the contemporary thought of the Catholic Church (we essentially see ourselves as the religion according to reason), I can think of no better volume than a book-length interview Ratzinger gave to Peter Seewald in the late 90's, Salt of the Earth. His words are seriously beautiful.

On the relationship between faith and reason, I'd recommend Ratzinger/Benedict XVI's Regensburg address (free!), and John Paul II's Fides et Ratio (free).

If you are interested in the role of religion vis-à-vis politics and public life, I'd think to read Benedict XVI's addresses at Westminster Hall and at The Bundestag (both free), which are considered as among the finest speeches of his pontificate. If you are interested in Catholic social teaching (i.e. morality relating to economics), I'd go with Caritas in Veritate.

If you are interested in Christian theology relating to death, judgment, heaven and hell, I'd recommend no better book than C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce, which is a beautiful narrative that explains so well Christian theology relating to the last things.

I'd recommend as a general introduction to what faith means the first encyclical released by Pope Francis, Lumen Fidei (free on the Vatican's website), which was mostly written by his predecessor and offers profound meditations on the nature of Christian faith (read together with the first chapter of Introduction to Christianity, I think one would have a solid understanding of what it actually means to believe).

If you wish to know more about Christian sexual ethics (hint: it's not a decontextualized list of prohibitions, but rather a positive command to love totally), I can think of no better volume than Karol Wojtyla's Love and Responsibility, which is a philosophical-theological volume in which Wojtyla expounds on the "personalistic norm"—i.e. the only proper response to another human being is love, as opposed to "use," which is the treating of another as less than human, as an object (applicable also to employers who treat their employees as automatons).

As you can tell, I'm a pretty big fan of the previous pontificate.

This is a long post, so I'm putting this up front; if you read nothing else I've said, read this: Not talking about this with him is the wrong response. You absolutely must talk to him about this. Clear communication is crucial to a healthy marriage, much less a good sexual relationship.

Now, from what you say, there are probably issues for both of you here. I can't talk too much about his motivations, because we haven't heard from him, only from you--but I'll make an effort from my perspective as a husband in a moment.

First, let's take a quick look at what you've said: you find sex with your husband tedious and dirty. "Dirty" is a problem--a significant one--because marital sex is anything but dirty. To live chastely within marriage is to have marital sex. Marital sex is a reflection of Christ's love for the Church, and the love within the Godhead. It's a sacramental act of unity and life. You absolutely must abandon this notion that sex with your husband is dirty, but it won't be easy. Labeling sex as "dirty" is an easy way we repel our sexual desire when embracing it is sinful (e.g., as teenagers and when we're engaged). Forget that label. Sex isn't dirty. Extramarital sex is sinful; sex within marriage is a gift from God to express love and intimacy with our entire selves (body and soul).

The tedium of sex may be tied to several different issues. I do want to ask about the frequency of your intercourse: from what you say, it sounds like you're having sex regularly (daily a few months ago, several times per week now). Does that mean that you are not practicing NFP and periodic abstinence? Are you instead trying to have children now, or are you using artificial contraceptives?

I ask because artificial contraceptives, aside from being sinful, are known to have detrimental side effects in your sex life. Condoms reduce sensation for both parties. Hormonal contraceptives reduce your sex drive and (based on studies in other primates) may reduce your natural desirability to your mate. If this is the situation, it could contribute to his disinterest and your boredom.

Are you experiencing painful intercourse? My wife struggled with intercourse for our first year of marriage because she had conditions called vaginismus and vestibulodynia, which caused the whole experience to be excruciating rather than pleasant. We made a joint, sincere effort using multiple methods to reduce those conditions and improve her experience for months before we saw any real progress. That can be another factor.

What is your general attitude toward sex? Have you ever found it remotely pleasurable? If not, have you spoken to your husband about your experience in the bedroom? Or are you treating sex like a solemn duty you must perform so that he feels fulfilled? The entire process of human marital sex is for both husband and wife to enjoy it. In a technical sense, neither one of you "must" enjoy it in order for the other to do so, but it is more enjoyable for both of you if you both enjoy it. If you have ever felt pleasure during intercourse, talk to your husband about that--ask him to pursue that before satisfying himself. Satisfying him sexually is easy; satisfying you sexually probably takes a little work, and that should be a worthwhile pursuit.

Now, on to him for a moment. My guess is that he loves you. If he was unchaste before dating you, then he didn't marry you just to have sex with you (because he didn't have to get married to have sex); from what you have said, he remained chaste while dating you and engaged to you, too. Which means he does love you, but he may not know quite what that means (or should mean). Again, talk to him about his actions, about how you feel, about how he feels. Talk to him about your marriage, about your future together.

On the pornography: it almost definitely predates your marriage and your relationship and is absolutely never your fault. That's on him. You didn't hold a gun to his head and force him to do it, and even if you had, he still shouldn't have done it. Never blame yourself for this. I know that's difficult to accept, but it's the truth. He, and only he, is responsible for his sins. If you're the coldest wife in the world who refuses sex for twenty years straight, watching pornography and masturbating would still be his sins.

The most important thing here is for both of you to come to a real, clear understanding of what married life within the Church is. You need to read about the Theology of the Body. Here is a short, relatively easy book on the subject. Here is the longer book behind that book. Here is a tome with the religious and philosophical underpinnings of it all. Here is a short video and here is a long one. Others will hopefully post other resources (podcasts, videos, books, etc.). This is critical. It sounds like you and your husband both are lacking important information about how marriage works in the Catholic Church.

The second most important thing is for you to improve your communication with your husband. Here is a box set of short books that can help with that (these significantly improved communication between my wife and I). I've also seen these at a local library.

Your husband needs to commit to improving your marriage as much as you do. You must talk to him as soon as possible. Don't put it off. He should know that something is wrong, especially if he's choosing pornography over you.

More details will enable us to help you more, but nothing will help as much as clear communication with your husband and a dedication to building the best marriage possible.

Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtła

This book is based on Bl. Pope John Paul II's pastoral work as a priest and bishop in Poland before becoming pope. It is a philosophical treatment of love and family and is very dense but very good in my opinion. I first came across this book in a philosophy course. The other main texts utilized in this course were Plato's Phaedo and portions of St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica. I've been meaning to go back and reread this book for years.

There are literally entire books written about this type of thing (see Love and Responsibility). There isn't enough room here to do it justice, but I'll try to address some of your concerns.

> I believe love trumps all

I think that you should begin by examining what you really mean by this, and if that is really what you believe. This is a view that has probably become quite popular because of American culture. In all the romantic movies, the guy and the girl usually end up running away together and everything works out because they "love" each other. But that's now the way real life works, and I think it's a poor depiction of what real love is. Does love in fact trump all? That's a personal question about your own beliefs that I can't answer for you, but that you should think about.

I also want to mention that I think you should read Genesis 2-3. When I read that passage it helps me understand that men and women are, in fact, not "equal". They are not exactly the same. They are two completely different beings with different body parts and traits, who are both created in the image of God.

I’d suggest Christopher West for a beginners study

Then, if that’s “easy” you might go ahead and read the original text by JPII

If you are interested in more you can read JPII’s Love and Responsibly. That the philosophical foundation of his later work.

love and responsibility

Every Catholic thinker on the planet teaches otherwise. Even the Catechism passages you quote and encyclical passages you cite teach otherwise. Going off about masturbation and contraception is an irrelevant red herring. No Pope or Doctor has ever taught that every single sex act must be specifically an attempt to have a child. The fact that NFP is allowed means that this is not the case. I think you have a very immature understanding of sexuality and little knowledge of human biology as well.

Since you think you're so pre-Vatican II, start with some actual pre-Vatican II thought.

I know people who got pregnant while using birth control.

If you confess fornication and struggle with accepting the Church's teaching on sex, may I suggest digging deeper? I've had to do that to understand more than one topic. Theology of the Body, Love and Responsibility, and Humanae Vitae are great places to start. If you're anything like me and you suck at theology, Christopher West and Edward Sri might be helpful.

>Yeah, the Church fails miserably here.

I did not realize that the Mission of the Church was to provide dating opportunities. How foolish of me to think that Her mission here on earth is to save souls.

You are right. How selfish of Mother Church.

>but we also lack any traditional or modern discernment aids for marriage.

Oh? For as long as you have been here, you have never heard of Theology of the Body?

What about Three to Get Married by Fulton Sheen?

Or Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla?

A simple Google Search will give you many, many resources. If only you would take the time to look.

>I'd love to be able to use a Catholic resource on this

How about A Catholic Handbook for Engaged and Newly Married Couples? Would that work?

Do not be afraid to ask your pastor or your chancery for recommendations. The Church has a wealth of resources for all things related to vocations.

Uh.

Except the difference is that pleasure is a side-effect, rather than an end. Which is not to say that pleasure is bad, indeed, we have books written by popes on how couples can ensure they achieve simultaneous orgasm. Don't believe me? Check out these bits from Karol Woljitya (aka Pope John Paul II)'s book Love and Responsibility

>Sexologists state that the curve of arousal in woman is different from that in man–it rises more slowly and falls more slowly…. The man must take this difference between male and female reactions into account, not for hedonistic, but for altruistic reasons. There exists a rhythm dictated by nature itself which both spouses must discover so that climax may be reached both by the man and by the woman, and as far as possible occur in both simultaneously.

>If a woman does not obtain natural gratification from the sexual act there is a danger that her experience of it will be qualitatively inferior, will not involve her fully as a person…. it is usually the result of egoism in the man, who failing to recognize the subjective desires of the woman in intercourse, and the objective laws of the sexual process taking place in her, seeks merely his own satisfaction, sometimes quite brutally.

Sex is designed to be pleasurable. But that's not what makes it holy. Food is designed to be tasty. But that's not what makes it nutritious.

Maybe Love and Responsibility too!

This is entirely a strawman argument. You're stating what you think the Catholic Church believes, which is incorrect, and then arguing against your mis-stated beliefs. You've either misinterpreted what you've been told, or those people are misinformed themselves.

>It doesn't ultimately matter to me what you (or the CC) want to call doctrine.

Yea, it really does. You can't debate something if you can't even define what it is you're debating.

>I can see something like abortion remaining forbidden indefinitely, but contraception and gay marriage? They're far too recent to be given any quality of immutability as regards the church's teaching on them.

Homosexuality is not a recent occurrence in human history. Engaging in homosexual activity has been consistently addressed as gravely disordered. The fact that people with homosexual tendencies want to now marry in recent years doesn't change anything.

>Catholicism has long upheld a tradition of faith and reason as regards moral issues; that is, they're not truths to be handed down, but rather must be arrived at by reason.

Once again, incorrect. Catholic moral teaching is informed by both revelation (sort of what you're calling faith) and also reason as we understand the natural law, that is, the order of purpose and dignity as God created it with respect to mankind and the world. Catholic moral theology isn't just "reasoned out" with no recourse to the revealed truth that has been handed down.

>This attitude is definitely part of the Catholic tradition.

Not in the way you just described it.

>I'm of the view that there exist no good arguments against gay marriage/contraception

The combined 1,000+ pages of sexual ethics written by John Paul II are apparently rubbish, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Theology of the Body |
Love and Responsibility

>Same goes for ordination of women, though perhaps that will last a little longer (which is mind-boggling, since the arguments against it are even worse than those against gay marriage/contraceptives) if only because PJPII abused his position in an attempt to silence all discussion on it, despite the findings of the Pontifical Biblical Commission on the matter.

The Pontifical Biblical Commission findings do not, themselves, carry any doctrinal weight. It is the Pope, in collegiality with the bishops of the Church that exercise the teaching authority of the Church. The Pope generally directs that discussion and has the prerogative to disagree.