Reddit reviews Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in America
We found 17 Reddit comments about Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in America. Here are the top ones, ranked by their Reddit score.
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> if I have a ton of POC family whom I never saw as any different until people got angry for me for seeing them as equals, how could I be racist?
Colorblindness ("I don't see race") is a step backwards. See this book.
>Actual racists aren't friends with people of color
Considering how it's a cliche now that racists say "But some of my best friends are black!," this is also bullshit.
Naturally, almost all white people are like this.
They start by defining a contradictory term:
> Colour-blind racism
Gender-blind sexism anyone? Use contradictions to increase the edge!
> is racism that acts as if skin colour does not matter – even when it does.
This could be an interesting concept. Too bad they forget to write about it.
> also known as aversive racism
It's not, actually. Good thing they mentioned this though, because that seems to be what the rest of the post tries to talk about.
I don't really know what to say about this. Is it a strawman? It seems contradictory on multiple levels, and they never actually describe a racist behavior. They seem to just be saying that they're oppressed because white people just think racist things while somehow not realizing it. Then they complain about white people stereotyping others, while stereotyping white people like crazy.
What really gets me though is simply the terminology. It's not enough to call it racism, or 'stealth racism' or 'subconscious racism' - simply saying exactly what you mean is not postmodern enough. Apparently this particular term was made popular by a book which:
I just can't anymore.
When you control for all of the things you're mentioning, blacks are still convicted more often and receive harsher penalties than their white counterparts.
This is a well established, well researched, well documented fact of social life.
Google scholar can pull up more articles on structural racism than anyone cares to read. A good book to start with is "Racism Without Racists", which addresses some of the softer parts of racism.
That’s what I’m saying. The laws don’t explicitly target Black people but they disproportionately affect Black people. It’s like what GOP strategist Lee Atwater said:
>Y'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."
Bonilla-Silva has discussed this in Racism Without Racists, terming it “color-blind racism.” And Bobo et al have called it “laissez-faire racism”. And, of course, Michelle Alexander’s The New Jim Crow is popular as well on the topic. If you don’t want to read a book or article, Ava DuVernay’s Netflix film 13th is insightful too. Examples abound. Take a look at the disparity in sentencing between crack cocaine and powder cocaine. They’re essentially the same drug, but the former is more likely to be found in Black communities and the latter is more likely to be found in white ones, but the former has much harsher penalties. Or look at sentencing for marijuana. Surveys show that white and Black people use and sell it at the same rate, but Black people are put in jail for marijuana offenses at a rate of 20 to 50 times more than white people. So I’d point to the example of the war on drugs, mass incarceration, and broken-windows policing as ways that racism has evolved.
Colorblind racism is a researched concept itself, you can read more about it here in lay terms or the actual scholarship here.
I also don't see them defining racism so much as explaining how they chose to measure racist attitudes given their data set. In academic settings racism is almost always defined as systemic, rather than your definition.
To answer your other questions, they likely rescaled variables to make the data easier to interpret and/or compare. To account for the oversampling, they used propensity score weights, which you can read about here.
>My statement about the field studies was in response to you when you said that people don't know from anecdotal evidence that we're all the same. According to you, this can only be learned from "studying the field". So, you're claiming that Ethnic Studies is useless by your own standards because it doesn't study the field?
When you said "we're all the same" I was assuming you were referring to genetics (which isn't entirely, but mostly true). With regards to culture, history, and levels of discrimination, we're very different, but the white perspective is what gets expressed broadly in culture. In addition, it's inculcated by the idea of "colorblindness" which is in itself a form of racism. Here's an article that says as much although the book's much better.
> What does this matter to the kids who are studying? If we want more minorities with great educations, have them spend less time working on PC perfection and more time studying the subjects at hand.
That is what we currently do. No one's saying don't teach kids math, US history, English etc. That's what our culture and educational system demands, and so it would be a disservice not to educate kids. However, does it seem to be working that well? Our schools are the most segregated they've been since Jim Crow ended. As I stated in my post, I'm not arguing we replace anything, and as the districts that now have ethnic studies have shown, you don't have to.
> Combine that with the fact that minority communities tend to be uneducated and poor for some reason, this leads to yet another decrease in the chances of minorities leading the field in a certain subject.
Are you ok with this? If so, then I don't know why we're having this discussion because I'm guessing there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. Education is literally the main conduit out of poverty in this country. Your level of education does more to predict your income, your chances of staying out of prison, and your lifespan than any other factor for people of color.
> You seem to speak from a position of a "white privilege apologetic". It's true that I'm lucky to be where I am, but that doesn't change the validity of what I claim
No, I speak from a platform of white privilege. Unequivocally. And I don't apologize for anything. I just try and stand up for what's right.
I understand what you're saying completely, but I hope one day you can see that the reason this stuff happens is not because "black people are bad people" but rather "white people made black people bad people."
That's a pretty big claim to make, so let me explain myself.
From the moment we (I say we because I'm white) brought blacks over to be used as slaves, we stripped them of everything that they could be proud of. We took their tribal names, their tribal religions and customs, and put them at the absolute bottom of society with no way out.
When slavery ended, discrimination didn't. Jim Crow laws are something everyone knows about, but throughout the country, if you were black you were likely illiterate and poor because the education system for blacks just was not up to par. Additionally black workers (even skilled ones) had trouble finding work all over the country because no one wanted to risk hiring a "Negro" and having all the white workers get their panties in a bunch.
So in the 150 years since slavery ended we've slowly eroded away at the massive systems of inequality that placed and kept blacks at the bottom of society, but it hasn't been enough. Segregation might be over, but inner city schools are predominantly black and underfunded (because all the whites left and property values tanked leading to robber baron landlords buying up all the property to make a quick buck). The system is still heavily rigged against blacks.
And so what does it mean to be black in America? Especially if you're not one of the lucky few who can call themselves "Middle Class"? You grow up surrounded by other poor black folks, you learn very quickly that [White] society doesn't give a fuck about your or your family and you have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of being on welfare while the country calls you lazy and unmotivated and accuses you of stealing from the hardworking [White] citizens of the country.
It's hard. No one ever offers you a break, no one ever lets you cut a corner. Instead, society continually puts up barriers to your success (some mentioned above, some not), and so you grow to distrust the rest of [White] society, and you don't care about the system, and you're just going to take what you want because that's what the system has been doing to you for 300 years.
Does that excuse the behavior of people like the woman you talk about in your story? No, it absolutely doesn't. But these people aren't out to get you, per se, it's just something they've been trained to do by their peers and their families and implicitly by a society that repeatedly says "We don't care about you, you are scum and worthless."
I worked for the better part of a year in a low-pay part-time job where I was the only white person and the only person with a college degree; most people I worked with had several felonies and most didn't finish high school. It was rough and it was a big adjustment period for me (I transferred when I moved, the division that I worked for in my old place of residence was staffed by college students and retirees looking for a distraction).
But you know what? Over time, I became friends with a lot of these gang-banger types. I watched them do drugs on the clock, I had to cover a shift more than once because someone just didn't come to work (because they were still out partying from the night before, they couldn't get a ride to work, or just didn't want to go), and to this day I have nothing in common with any of them.
But I didn't judge them for the color of their skin. I listened when they talked. I heard a story from a co-worker (now a small-time molly pusher at the local clubs) about how he slept on the floor his whole childhood because he was the oldest of five kids, and the one bed they had only had room for the four youngest kids. He has screwed up and been in jail more than once in his life, but he's an okay guy overall.
But you know what? I also worked with his younger brother (one of the lucky four to have a bed), and he has a high school diploma, he's got some college classes under his belt, and he's got a good music career going such that he opens for all the big Hip Hop acts that come through our town. Maybe he hasn't quite made it yet, either, but I like to think that for all the shit his brother went through, he has more of a chance to make it because of it.
It's not easy being black in America. In fact, it downright sucks. There are a lot of shitty poor black people in America because society has pushed them into ghettos for the better part of the last 150 years.
Geez, I don't have the source completely handy, but I know it is referenced in Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism Without Racists" Amazon Link ...anyway, some Social Scientist determined that if all the institutional barriers that hold blacks down were instantly removed, it would take something like another 80 years to fully achieve equality between races.
TLDR - I don't blame your for your attitudes towards blacks at all, and it's not even wrong to say that your views of poor black people are correct, BUT there are a whole lot of reasons as to WHY this is the case, and acknowledging these reasons may actually get us to a point where something positive happens.
Thanks for the response.
Then let me be clear, I think the country has made great strides in the last 50 years. But, we still do have state racism within our justice system. If you are interested in learning more about the role of institutionalize racism, I encourage you to read
As for the genes of Black Americans, they are still an estimated 80% African on average.
I just finished The New Jim Crow.
I was really expecting it to be much more slanted than it was. A few parts blew my mind -- especially that bit about the "war on drugs" having been thrust onto the public prior to the point that drug abuse was actually becoming a problem. Overall though, it really provides a vastly wider perspective whitewashed from most high school history classes and I cannot recommend it enough to understanding race relations in America.
I read this in conjunction with Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in America . There was some overlap but both informed the other. I'd recommend if interested in the topic of race relations specifically; though I'd recommend Michelle Alexander's book to everyone -- regardless of interest level.
>'Racism' in the public consciousness ...
Jim Crow racism. People are now colorblind racists.
sources: https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1501260235
https://www.amazon.com/Racism-without-Racists-Color-Blind-Persistence/dp/1442202181
This was required reading for one of my classes in undergrad and I think it does a good job.
I agree with you to a degree. There is a paper called "color blind racism" that explains in America how society is systemically keep the rich, rich and the poor, poor. It is racism that doesn't target minorities (sounds weird right?). It does historically affect non Caucasians to a greater degree. Being poor in this country sucks because the rich keep you there. But being a minority and poor is still measureably worse.
Here's a link to the book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1442202181/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_ZDxDDb9T4C3TA
If anyone is seriously interested, because the book is pricey, I could link a paper I wrote on this for a college sociology course.
Read a book: http://www.amazon.com/Racism-without-Racists-Color-Blind-Persistence/dp/1442202181
Yes, it does. I practice the hide + 1-star Quickmatch treatment.
It's an absolute dealbreaker, no matter what race the person is. I don't care if there's racial animus behind it or if it's a mere "preference"; as many cool, open-minded people as there are in my area who don't strongly prefer to date intra-racially, I can't be bothered to parse out what lies in the hearts who do prefer it. I realize that people of color have reasons for selecting "yes" that aren't rooted in white supremacy, but I still don't have time for it, especially since I'm the kind of person who, not fitting neatly into any particular cultural box, tends to focus more on individuals rather than groups. A lot of the pushback against the notion that selecting "yes" is racist (which it is, even under the narrow Merriam-Webster definition of "racism") is a byproduct of a modern Western society shot through with racism without racists.
For the record, I'm not white.
Everyone cares subconsciously about what someone’s skin color is. My argument (and what the data shows) is that everyone has prejudice and you are most likely to fall victim to prejudice when you think you have none. It’s not racist to admit you have prejudice and attempt to overcome it and analyze each situation to understand when that bias was unwittingly applied to your decision making.
To use an analogy: Alcoholics are most at risk of relapse when they think they are can easily resist the temptation of alcohol. It lets them put their guard down which in turn makes them more likely to fall victim to temptation.
To be color blind is to be ignorant of our own biases and culturally laden judgements.
This form of color blind racism is considered to be racism without racists. It is when people are good-intentioned but blind to their biases.
I suggest you read the 3rd book since when I’m proposing is a major shift in world view for most people, which it often takes an entire book to truly convey the extreme degree to which color blindness is harmful.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150715103510.htm
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/color-blind-policies-could-make-diversity-harder-to-achieve.html
https://www.amazon.com/Racism-without-Racists-Color-Blind-Persistence/dp/1442202181
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culturally-speaking/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism?amp
Racist prejudice can exist in the absence of intention to be racist. This is the whole point of books like Racism without Racists. Systems can be set up to be systematically biased for/against particular races without individuals in those systems intending the result. The reason I mention intent specifically is that your comment was that people portraying interracial relationships had "intent to weaken or destroy" white people.
Ferguson's still pretty fresh for a book to be out. But maybe this can elucidate attitudes that blacks are keenly aware of. I think this is where it begins.