Best mormonism books according to redditors

Bias breakdown, in my opinion:

• At least seven are written from a pro-LDS perspective.
  
• Five are mostly critical of the church (I'm combining CES Letter and Letter for my Wife as one; they are largely redundant).
  
• Four are remarkably neutral; a balance of supportive and critical LDS narratives.
  
• Three are about Christian theology and don't even mention Mormonism once.
  
  ***
  EDIT: Damn, I knew I'd forget some. Add these to the list above:
  
  
• Studies of the Book of Mormon (B.H. Roberts) - proLDS
  
• Educated: A Memoir (Tara Westover) - neutral

Given that people are asking about church problems, I thought I'd make a post about it.

Information deemed as "anti-Mormon" can be validated with LDS or neutral resources, the "anti" information is actually typically the truth. I make a point of verifying sources directly with LDS information. I do not assume it's trusted unless the information can be corroborated with information in BYU archives, LDS.org or other LDS-run sites.

• Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with his face buried in a hat. Emma (this is from RLDS/CoC history but the LDS church uses the RLDS archives for its records as well), David Whitmer (page 423 under "Manner as Follows"), Joseph Knight and others' accounts support this. A talk in 1993 called "A Treasured Testament" mentions this method. When's the last time you saw LDS artwork depicting Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon with his face in a hat?
  
  
• Joseph Smith married fourteen and sixteen year old girls when in his mid to late thirties. Familysearch.org supports this. See Helen Mar Kimball, the fourteen year old bride. Joseph Smith also married women who were married (which has no scriptural justification), see Zina Huntington Jacobs as one example of several. More information can be found at wivesofjosephsmith.org which is based off of LDS author Todd Compton's book, "In Sacred Loneliness" which was published by Signature Books. The age of majority at the time was twenty one, and average marriage ages were not outside the early twenties, teen brides were rare. See 1890-2010, Netherlands 18th century, and Social History.
  
  
• Joseph Smith [ordered](https://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/6/22.html#HOC (page 448) the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and declared martial law. (Martial and law each have a link). This is what led to his incarceration at Carthage.
  
  
• The information found in the Nauvoo Expositor (see Affadavits of Wm Law, Robert Foster, Jane Law and Austin Cowles) was not untruthful. LDS-owned Familysearch.org supports the allegations of polygamy, and the Second Anointing is a ordinance which little information can be found, but a reference of it can be found on LDS.org.
  
  
  
• Second Anointing
  
  
• See section "What is meant by having one's calling and election made sure?"
  
  
• See History of the Church, 5:391-392.
  
  
• Joseph Smith had several contradictory accounts of the First Vision. I find the official explanation for why there were multiple variants to be wholly unsatisfying. The singular detail which should be uniform in all of them is not uniform. Who did Joseph see?
  
  
• There are problems with the priesthood restoration as seen on LDS-run josephsmithpapers.org. There's a six year gap in the record of the supposed event and the first time it shows up in any book or manuscript.
  
  
• The manuscript (there's nothing there for May 1829 at all) for the time frame doesn't suggest that such an event occurred.
  
  
• In August 1830, the manuscript for Doctrine and Covenants 27 was written, it does not match the modern version.
  
  
• In 1831 Joseph Smith was ordained a High Priest by Lyman Wight after he ordained Lyman Wight as high priest. Why would Joseph Smith need to be ordained a high priest if he'd received this office already from Peter, James and John and isn't ordaining Lyman Wight as high priest before Lyman Wight ordained Joseph Smith a circular exercise?
  
  
• 1833 edition of Book of Commandments CHAPTER XXVIII (predecessor to Doctrine and Covenants)
  
  
• 1835 edition of Doctrine and Covenants Section L
  
  There's multiple other issues which are problematic and I've already taken up a substantial amount of space here. I wanted to illustrate issues which cause people to go from believer to non-believer. I was once a believer, I thought I had felt the Spirit, I even got married in the temple. The church is not what it represents itself to be. The Spirit may be nothing more than a normal emotional response which is exploited easily by religious organizations.
  
  
• Elevation
  
  
• Elevation 2
  
  
• Elevation 3
  
  
• Frisson
  
  
• Frisson 2
  
  
• Frisson 3
  
  
  I did once have a pretty strong testimony, but that is when I only knew part of the information. When allowing myself to investigate information with an eye to scientific reasoning in the case of the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham as well as the Bible, ultimately none of the scriptures hold up to scrutiny.
  
  There's no genetic, archaeological or linguistic support for the Book of Mormon as verified by any credible scientist. The world of science is not "out to get" Mormons, it just doesn't support Mormonism's assertions of accuracy of canonized LDS texts.
  
  The Book of Mormon is specific in the extent of the expansion of the civilization in Helaman 3:5-8. The limited geography explanation is directly contradicted by the Book of Mormon. A small village of perhaps a hundred people in Canada settled by the Vikings a millennia ago for a duration of maybe ten years has been found, but yet no whole cultural digs have been found to support the Book of Mormon. The items where some aspect is used to support the Book of Mormon are typically a single item or aspect of a dig and explanations given by those supportive of Mormonism are not accepted by archaeologists.
  
  A small cluster of Africans have had their genetic history linked to seven Semitic men dating to 2,500 years ago, and yet no genetic, archaeological, linguistic or cultural evidence in the study of Native Americans supports a cluster of Hebraic people from the same era as the progenitors of the African tribe previously mentioned. Lehi, Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Nephi, Zoram, Jacob and Joseph and Mulek are all males mentioned in the same era who supposedly left Jerusalem (or were born in the wilderness) making for at least nine male progenitors who made it to the Americas. Regardless of if all of those descending people have died out, we can now perform genetic tests on bodies of people who died multiple millennia ago. The Anzik child shares genetics with ancient Siberians (and most of the Native Americans).
  
  Edit:formatting
  
  Edit 2: grammar and minor fact adjustment

This is duplicitous and unabashedly so. You make it seem like your post-modern, intellectualist approach to Mormonism is ubiquitous in the rank and file membership, which is blatantly dishonest. Quit your lying for the lord and tell the straight story.

You say:
>"I was taught about the Nauvoo Expositor, also he had a gun and fired it down the hallway"

Having been born in the church and been very active until about age 24, I've only ever met ONE member of the LDS church who knew about Joseph having carried a gun in Carthage and have NEVER heard it discussed in any church setting.

If you knew about it, then you're the exception and you know it. Most LDS faithful don't have any idea of any of the context surrounding Smith's incarceration and most are under the impression that it was entirely due to bigoted "anti mormon persecution".

>"Also, calling the Nauvoo Expositor a "newspaper" is insulting to newspapers. It was very poorly written, had no sources, and was just one large slander piece to Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

You don't get a pass to burn down a printing press because it's a crappy paper. Sorry. ([Mormon Think: Nauvoo Expositor]
(http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/nauvoo-expositor.htm))

>"To this day there is no strong evidence that Joseph Smith Jr did or did not have more than one wife.

What the hell are you talking about? You're either LYING or are underinformed:

-Todd Compton's In Sacred Lonliness discusses in depth each of the wives of JS.

-Wikipedia: List of Joseph Smith's wives

-Mormon Think: Joseph Smith Polygamy

This isn't a controversial issue any longer. Even the LDS apologists have admitted such:
>"Joseph Smith was eternally married to what currently are argued to be between eight and eleven already married women. If we consider only those eight marriages that can be adequately documented, we find that six of the marriages occurred within an eight-month period between late October 1841 and June 1842. Two more marriages occurred early in 1843. The women ranged in age from 20 to 47, with an average age of 29. Of those eight marriages, five were to women who had Mormon husbands and three were to women married to disaffected members or non-Mormons. Three of the women's first marriages to Mormon husbands and two of the marriages to non-Mormons lasted until death. The other three remaining marriages ended later in life after Joseph's death in 1844. In all cases the women continued to live with their first husbands. Technically, a woman with more than one husband is defined as being involved in a polyandrous relationship, or practicing polyandry." (Samuel Katich, A Tale of two Marriage Systems, 2003)

He ordered the destruction of a private printing press that was exposing the fact that he was using his religious influence to coerce women into secretly marrying him and then denying it publicly. Did he deserve to be assassinated? No. Was he completely innocent (a lamb to the slaughter)? Absolutely not. The point of all this is that you will never hear anything about the Nauvoo expositor or Joseph's secret polyandry or anything leading up to his "martyrdom" in Mormon Sunday school, except that he was killed by "an angry mob".

You should read Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer for an in-depth story of the FLDS church. It's a very good read and those people are freaks! It was written before Jeffs' arrest, trial and imprisonment, but it gives the whole background story. Creepy AF.

This is the "Holiness to the Lord" parchment, found among Hyrum Smith's belongings after his death. It is further evidence that the Smiths practiced folk magic. A number of similar items were found among his belongings at that time:

Here is the "Saint Peter Bind Them" parchment.

Here is a graphical reproduction of the "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah" parchment.

Here is the inscribed dagger.

...all found among Hyrum's belongings. Also, on Joseph Smith's body was found this Jupiter Talisman.

They won't teach you any of that in Sunday School. For more information I recommend D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

I would be very, very cautious of any religious organization that compels you to formally "join" it (complete with secret ceremonies) and forces you to tithe to be a full-fledged member. It seems to me that true religion is transparent rather than secretive. The LDS organization is anything but transparent. Have you read Jon Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven? If not, I highly recommend it (the Amazon reviews are also a good resource) for a very thorough and unbiased history of the LDS movement. This is another recent article about the LDS that brings up some pretty troubling dealings on the business end of things.

I spent several years out in the American West living very close to a large LDS community and I saw a lot of very upsetting things go on within that community. Most of them had to do with the mistreatment of women and children, but a lot was simply cronyism and manipulation. It is a community that works very hard to keep appearances up to "outsiders", but they weren't able to hide everything.

I'm sure you are considering this conversion very carefully and I don't mean to undermine or disrespect your personal beliefs in any way, but I'd really encourage to you spend a great deal of time reading accounts from people (especially women) who have left the LDS church before you decided to join. Their recruitment can be quite intense, but it does not tell the whole truth behind the organization.

In the context of this community, I will also say that is is next to impossible to be a feminist and a Mormon at the same time. The ideologies conflict that violently.

OK, I will shut the fuck up now. Best to you in whatever choices you make in your life!

You seem like a super intelligent girl. You need to read four things before you get baptized. And read these items with your LDS boyfriend.

1) Letter to a CES Director

2) Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham from LDS.org.

3) Cherry Picking! The Book of Abraham Essay shows you how The Mormon Church lies about their true history and doctrine. There are many other sources that show this academic dishonesty

4) Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith


Read these items with your boyfriend. Make him read them critically. Don't let him off the hook. If you are planning to change your entire life for your boyfriend, he should be willing to do the same for you. Fact check everything using sources. Don't rely on anyone's word. And don't let your boyfriend use ad hominem arguments to defend The Mormon Church. Be honest... with yourself and with each other.


When you are done reviewing these items, if you wish you can move on to Mormon Think and Year of Polygamy. And check out NewNameNoah's videos on YouTube. NewNameNoah will show you the Mormon Temple ceremony in a safe environment.

Correct. Ironically, Joseph Smith was also a Freemason. You can find many similarities between the rituals of Freemasonry and Mormonism.

For anyone interested in the connection between Masonry and Mormonism please read:

Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism.

The Morgan Affair is really frustrating to talk about. There is no record of what happened after Morgan was kidnapped. Some accounts claim that he was drowned, others claim he was paid to leave New York state.

Oooo this is my wheelhouse!

First, I would recommend looking at the Mormon History Association Best Book awards going back to 1966. Quality scholarship, research, and writing are a mainstay with them.

Required reading:

Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John Turner / Brigham Young: American Moses by Leonard Arrington

Considered two of the best books about early Utah and the Brigham Young years. Arrington's book was considered groundbreaking when he wrote it, and Turner's book brings in the valuable perspective of the non-Mormon writing about Young. For many Mormons, Turner's book will be less sympathetic to Young than Arrington's, but Turner also worked closely with the Church Archives (and spoke glowingly about them and that process), so his research had access to some better sources. If you need a primer for Brigham Young, I recommend Arrington's book. For a Brigham Young graduate level course, I recommend Turner.

Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview by Michael Quinn

To understand much of what happened in early Mormonism, you must understand the role that folk magic played in the lives of Americans in the 1800s. Quinn's research at this time was top notch, and he was a quickly rising star among Mormon historians. Considered one of his best works, and foundational to the understanding things like seer stones, divining rods, visions, and everything else that happened in the early church days.

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince

Covers late 1940s - 1960s Mormonism, one of the "rising moments" of Mormonism when we went from a Utah-church to a worldwide church. Prince had amazing access to the journals of President McKay's secretary, which led to some candid discussions about things like the publishing of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie, blacks and the priesthood, ecumenical outreach, and politics.

Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball / Lengthen Your Stride: The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball by Edward Kimball

Ed was Pres. Kimball's son, and the books cover both the apostle years and presidency years of Spencer W. Kimball. If you had to choose one, get Lengthen Your Stride, but make sure it has the CD that comes with the book. This has the unabridged manuscript prior to the Deseret Book edits, which is much more interesting.

By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl Givens (heck...anything by Terryl Givens!)

I'll admit - I'm a Terryl Givens fanboy. By the Hand of Mormon was the one that first got me in to him, mostly because he took the Book of Mormon as a serious work of literature to examine it's merits. It's not as devotional as many traditional LDS books about the Book of Mormon (it was put out by Oxford University Press), but it really gave me a deeper appreciation for the Book of Mormon as contemporary literature. Also check out Viper on the Hearth (Mormons on myth and heresy), People of Paradox (Mormon culture), When Souls had Wings (the pre-existence in Western thought), and so many others.

And just because I'm a big book nerd, here's the list of books that are on my desk right now that I can give you quick reviews if you want:

• Leonard Arrington and the Writing of Mormon History by Greg Prince
  
• The Mormon Jesus: A Biography by John Turner
  
• Mormon Feminism: Essential Writings, edited by Brooks, Steenblik and Wheelwright
  
• Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness by W. Paul Reeve
  
• Pedestals and Podiums: Utah Women, Religious Authority and Equal Rights by Martha Sonntag Bradley
  
• A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine & Church History, edited by Laura Harris Hales
  
• Glorious in Persecution: Joseph Smith, American Prophet 1839-1844 by Martha Bradley Evans
  
• The Mormon Church & Blacks: A Documentary History, edited by Harris & Bringhurst
  
• From the Outside Looking In: Essays on Mormon History, Theology and Culture, edited by Neilson & Grow
  
• Out of Obscurity: Mormonism since 1945, edited by Mason & Turner
  
• Mormonism & American Politics, edited by Balmer & Riess
  
• Seeking the Promised Land: Mormons and American Politics by Campbell, Green & Monson
  
• A Book of Mormons: Latter-day Saints on a Modern-Day Zion, edited by Jensen & McKay-Lamb
  
• Revelations in Context: The Stories Behind the Sections of the Doctrine & Covenants by the LDS Church
  
• Natural Born Seer: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1805-1830 by Richard S. Van Wagoner
  
• Revelatory Events: Three Case Studies of the Emergence of New Spiritual Paths by Ann Taves (looking at Mormonism, Alcoholics Anonymous and A Course in Miracles)
  
• A House Full of Females: Plural Marriage and Women's Rights in Early Mormonism, 1835-1870 by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
  
• Baring Witness: 36 Mormon Women Talk Candidly about Love, Sex, and Marriage edited by Holly Welker

A church meeting in Frankfurt (faithful source, in-depth book about TSCC's relationship with / attitudes about the Nazis)

Magic Parchment photo and discussion

Canes and whatnot

More from earlier Reddit discussions

This book by Quinn

Edit to add: This book by the Tanners There is a sample of the first 6 pages for free online, you can read all about the Jupiter talisman in those first few pages.

It's been discussed so many times before. I'll just cut to the chase. Open a set of scripture to facsimile #3. There you will read Joseph Smith's claimed translations of the characters over this person or that person's head.

Here you can see the canonized facsimiles that contain real Egyptians characters along with Joseph Smith's claimed transitions. If you buy yourself a book on basic Egyptian you will have everything you need to test Joseph Smith's claim by yourself. There is no need to do the translation yourself. But doing so will bypass the fearful idea Mormons learn at church that equates problems with Joseph Smith as being just "anti-mormon lies".

Joseph Smith got the translation of the characters wrong while making several other verifiable mistakes.

There is no good apologetic response that directly responds to this problem other than to hand wave it away and talk about Nibley parallelisms. Some Mormons are even now claiming that the facsimiles (and the rest of the papyrus) was just inspiration from which to write a non-literal story about Abraham. However, that idea is mostly wishful thinking. Joseph Smith's own words do not support that idea.

That's just the begining, there are dozens of other verifiable problems with the BoA.

Start with the CES letter's section on the BoA.

Then read [The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri by Robert K. Ritner](
https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321)

D Michael Quinn is set to release a book on finance in November.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468545789&sr=8-1&keywords=quinn+d+michael+books

I suggest you read Under The Banner of Heaven. Not only is it a fascinating read, but it will also explain how the FLDS's brand of polygamy (which is obviously the most prominent form of polygamy in the country) goes hand in hand with child rape.

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730540/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_dE1KAbJZEKJ0S

Lee was eventually convicted and executed, but the others all escaped punishment for the most part (albeit living as fugitives). Brigham Young played a role (enormous to some, tacitly implying in others) and yet has a university named after him.

It's not to necessarily blame the Mormons, but they did secede from the United States and were not very good at integrating with society under their initial leaders. To claim that Mormons are actively trying to destroy the United States now is as spurious as saying that Obama is a Muslim communist nazi.

Krakauer's excellent Under the Banner of Heaven contains a well-investigated version of the story, as well as a good amount of the Mormon history.

> In my understanding polygamy is not officially gone from church doctrine, but rather just not currently practiced. Reading OD1 seems to confirm this as in no place does it strictly repeal it. Is this true? Will polygamy be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom and would it be practiced again should the laws of marriage in the United States change to permit it?

Yes, it is still doctrinal and does still shape sealing policies. I've been taught that it would be practiced again in the future and that it is practiced in the CK. I don't, however, believe that.

> I've heard rumors and read accounts of prominent Mormon leaders (Joseph Smith & Brigham Young in particular) marrying women who already had husbands that were still living. Is this true? What is the reasoning behind this?

Yes, it's true. I don't know the reason. It's one of the most troubling aspects of the historical practice of polygamy.

> In the afterlife, can someone marry my wife? (We are sealed in the temple)

Who really knows what exactly will happen in the afterlife?

> Brigham Young had children with multiple (like... 15ish?) wives? Why were these children not permitted to have a father they didn't share with so many others? Did Utah Territory have a significantly larger female population than male?

Brigham had children with 16 of his 55 wives. In a lot of cases, I don't really see a significant difference between growing up with Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball as your father and growing up without a father—especially when those fathers spent so much time off on missions. Utah didn't have significantly more females than males. The census actually indicates that there were more men than women. AFAIK, it was only a small number of men that were able to get a large number of wives. Elder Widstoe talks about it in his book "Evidences and Reconciliations", and concludes that they practiced polygamy not because there were surplus women but because they believed that God commanded it.

> D&C 132:62-64. Do we still believe that? Why is that still in the scripture, it seems very... ... not what I learn in Sunday School. Man owning women, man sleeping with many women - women being denied the same, if the original wife disagrees God will "destroy" her... this is a bit concerning, please tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

No, I think that you do understand these verses. I don't know whether or not "we" (the Church) believe them, but I don't accept them. They're in the canon, but any lesson that includes section 132 is usually selective about how it covers it and mostly just covers the blessings of eternal (one man and one woman) marriage.

Polygamy is difficult to understand and easy to judge. There was some good that came out of it (including me), but a lot of it was also done poorly.

If you really want to learn more about polygamy, I would recommend reading history books.

Here are some good ones you could look into:

• Mormon Polygamy
  
• Mormon Enigma
  
• In Sacred Loneliness
  
• Rough Stone Rolling
  
• Joseph Smith's Polygamy
  
  I would also recommend reading what Parley P Pratt wrote about polygamy in his autobiography, as well as this essay that the church recently put out.

Check out D. Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magical World View if you haven't already. There's all kinds of good stuff there.

There are no non LDS egyptologists who believe JS translated any of the Book of the Dead correctly. The book below takes a look at all the translations and the journal entries while JS was translating.

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

Incidentally, the Lowry Nelson letters were the final straw for me. They showed that the essays were not truthful. Clearly, prophets had stated that blacks were less valiant in the preexistence was doctrine. The essays contend otherwise.

In examining church material it became clear that the church lies and covers stuff up.

The other big issue was marrying other men’s wives, young girls, and girls who he was a custodian for while he never got sealed to his children or parents.

"The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power" by D. Michael Quinn will be the authority on the subject when it comes out in October. Quinn was a BYU professor, church historian, and EDIT: in my opinion on track to be an apostle when he started to learn too much and was excommunicated with The September Six.

 

Till then, /u/Mithryn's research here is fairly thorough.

 

 

This is a good resource for how the church supports Mission Presidents, which is a pretty low level clergy.

First off, I’m a different person than who you originally ranted at. Second, I’m active LDS and heterosexual and married with kids.

I’m asking these questions because you keep saying DOCTRINE in all caps as if there have been ANY spiritual principles that have remained the same throughout LDS Church history.

This is a verifiably false assumption. Even “Doctrines” change over time. There’s a great book called This is My Doctrine by BYU professor Charles Harrel that discusses this in far more detail than i am capable.

It makes me sad to see such cold-hearted fundamentalism as yours in mormonism.

Yup, it was B.H. Roberts. The book he eventually wrote and published is called "Studies of the Book of Mormon."

Interestingly, the book was published by the University of Illinois, not the Church.

Choice quotes:

>In the early 1920s, Roberts was asked by the First Presidency of the LDS Church to develop an apologetic to explain difficulties in the Book of Mormon.

The book was published in 1985, which shows how long and hard he worked on it.

>Roberts was "torn by an internal struggle between his faith and a desire to be honest with himself.

A problem many at FAIR don't seem to struggle with....

>Roberts concluded that the "evidence I sorrowfully submit" pointed to Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon's creator.

>Although Roberts's manuscripts were intended for perusal by the general authorities of the LDS Church, the authorities proved uninterested in examining them.

Funny how the very people who gave him the task weren't interested. They really aren't scholars.

>He also warned that the problems described would haunt the church "both now and also in the future" and, unless answered, they would undermine "the faith of the Youth of the Church."

Good read for under $20

It was what ultimately made my shelf fall. I held up everything on the fact that the BoM existed and no explanation made sense except for the Church's accepted history.

Learning that a prophet tasked with that specific task came to the conclusion that Joseph probably wrote the book was earth-shattering.

Plus Hitler liked the Mormons!

Recommended read: Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany: https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680

How is it that Mormons were persecuted in Missouri but welcomed in Nazi Germany? That's fucked up.

Sure.

Native American DNA shows no mid eastern link as described in Book of Mormon and is of Asiatic origin.

Book of Abraham hoax

http://www.amazon.com/The-Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri/dp/1560852321

You can hear Robert Ritner speak on it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

D. Michael Quinn addressed the scope of the finances (holding companies, property, etc.) in his book but I don't think he came up with a specific value. However, his goal was more to address the integration of church leadership in these external finances than to quantify them.

Edit: And I agree with you, it's really frustrating.

I came her to post ths. I've never personally read it, but I hear good things. Here is the amazon link. https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_24?keywords=lds+doctrine&qid=1573148979&s=books&sr=1-24

one source I just found from: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpolygamy/2016/09/10-things-polygamy-gave-mormonism/ "'10 Things Polagamy gave Mormonism' SEPTEMBER 27, 2016 BY LINDSAY HANSEN PARK.

​

\>10. Temple attendance, sacredness, holy garments, and oaths:

This is a complex and sensitive topic, so I will try and tread as respectfully as I can.

If biographer’s of Emma Smith are to be believed, the temple garment started out as a way to set polygamist men apart from monogamist men ( see Emma Hale Smith Biography, page 140). While the Endowment Ceremony first developed around those who were secretly initiated into plural sealings, it was quickly extended to more than just polygamists. Still, it is suggested that those receiving their endowments would have known about the secret practice, even if they didn’t currently live it. They would have been initiated into the Holy Order which meant keeping the practice secret, or rather- sacred, from the outside world.

Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Lyman Bushman:

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532


The best researched biography of Joseph Smith by an award winning historian who taught at Harvard, Columbia and BYU who is also an active believing Latter-day Saint.


Edit: If you like archaeology and the Book of Mormon, then try Mormon Codex by John L. Sorenson:

http://www.amazon.com/Mormons-Codex-Ancient-American-Book/dp/1609073991/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450660578&sr=1-1&keywords=Mormon+Codex

> You better believe I am going to plug it here for two reason: 1. This is my target audience…

Yes, /u/Porter_rockedwell, this is your target audience. Luna Lindsey plugged her book Recovering Agency here and even bought banner adds for the top of the page, and I remember much complaint but lots of praise. I suggest that you make your book available for kindle, which is easy for amateur self-publishers and how most people here would buy it.

As far as /u/daysofapostacy goes, it's seriously bizarre that anyone would claim that /r/exmormon is a lucrative place to gain followers for a fashion blog instead of sticking to bourgeoise TBM Utah Valley-girls. If /u/daysofapostacy was chasing fame and profit she would gone on pretending to be TBM. Choosing to come out as apostate is probably going to hurt her business.

Somewhat unrelated, but have you read Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology"? It's written by a believing (but nuanced) professor at BYU and reviews the historical developments of mormon doctrine from OT to NT to BOM and early church to modern church. It's pretty fascinating.

The field of early Mormon history is filled with faithful history, written by believers and critical history that believers would call "anti-mormon". For example, Rough Stone Rolling is a highly respected biography of Joseph Smith written by an quality historian but that historian is still a believing Latter-Day Saint. I'll give you an example of the differences. When describing Joseph's use of a seer stone to locating buried treasure Bushman describes these activities as Joseph's prophetic training and he is developing the skills needed to later use that stone to translate the Reformed Egyptian writing for the Book of Mormon. A secular historian doesn't begin with the a priori assumption that magic rocks exist in the world and people may need to train to use them. In choosing a naturalistic description of Joseph's behavior the reader may see that as an attack on Joseph's credibility as a prophet.

The one book that I believe reasonably walks the line between the two would be Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magical World View

It is covered in this great book, which I highly recommend. The history of Mormon temple worship is totally unknown and fascinating. Like, did you know that until Jos. F. Smith's Presidency, the Logan, Salt Lake, Manti, and St. George temples all had different versions of the endowment? Lots of good stuff in there.

Not liking their message doesn't make them wrong. Here's an LDS apologist who shows the same conclusion.

I wouldn't say it was the best non-fiction book I ever read but Under the Banner of Heaven was the best non-fiction book I read in the past year or two.

You may be interested in this: https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young-John-G-Turner/dp/0674049675

Bushman Review: “The story Turner tells in this elegantly written biography will startle and shock many readers. He reveals a Brigham Young more violent and coarse than the man Mormons have known. While lauding his achievements as pioneer, politician, and church leader, the book will require a reassessment of Brigham Young the man.”—Richard Bushman, author of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

I also have it linked in the text portion of the Wives of Joseph Smith Infographic

References:
Marriage Details are from wivesofjosephsmith.org
Which has compiled genealogical research from the following sources:

[A] familysearch.org (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

[B] Mormon Polygamy: A History, (Van Wagoner, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1989)

[C] Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, (Newell & Avery, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago, 1994)

[D] In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, (Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997)

[E] Doctrine and Covenants, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City)

Additional Panel References:

[1] "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy", NY Times, 8/23/1998, James Brooke

[2] Polyandry definition at wikipedia.

[3] Henry Jacobs' mission call; "Zina and Her Men", FAIR LDS Conference, 2006

[4] David Sessions mission call, wivesofjosephsmith.org, Patty Bartlett Sessions Biography

[5] Desdemona Fullmer quote, wivesofjosephsmith.org, D. Fuller Biography

*The cameo silhouettes were created by mormoninfographics for presentation purposes.

Other Resources
Black and White version of this chart for printouts, download here.
Full Rez image from above here.

>doesn't mean he had any interest in living with them

We know this isn't true. That he lived with them and slept in their beds is explicitly documented in some cases.

I recommend Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, an excellent biography of Emma by two faithful LDS historians.

>The relationship between Emma Smith and plural marriage is a very complicated one--later in her life, I think I remember reading that she denied her husband ever allowed or entered into plural marriages, but I'm having trouble finding a source that says this so I may be misremembering.

A great source on Emma is Mormon Enigma. (My copy is at home so I can't cite page numbers or grab exact quotes) but when her son went and interviewed her shortly before she died, she denied that Joseph had ever practiced polygamy. Although she certainly knew that he had. That whole interview is quite interesting because of how unreliable Emma is it it. Joseph Smith III (her son doing the interview, not her husband) I also really respect and he eventually did concede that his father wasn't innocent in polygamy after being exposed to the evidence.

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it" (D&C 135:3)

Seriously, after I read Mormon Polygamy: A History and No Man Knows My History and thought about how I'd been taught to deify Joseph Smith and knew little to nothing about the actual man, it was then that I understood the allegations of cult-like characteristics that are lodged against the Mormon church.

Pro-Nazi



"Dec 9,1933 - [Less than a year after Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany,] 'Church News' article 'Mormonism in The New Germany,' enthusiastically emphasizes parallels 'between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists.' First, Nazis have introduced 'Fast Sunday.' Second, 'it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the Word of Wisdom. Finally, due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one's grandmother was not a Jewess, there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.'



"Jan 25,1936 - 'Church News' Section photograph of LDS basketball team in Germany giving 'Sieg Heil' salute of Nazi Party."

"Many of those who felt the greatest anxiety about being able to carry on their religious activities are finding that at least one branch of their church work has received its greatest boon since Germany’s adoption of Hitlerism. It was always difficult for Genealogical workers to get into the archives of the recognized church to trace back family records. When the pastor learned of the intention access to the records was often denied. Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact, some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism. All genealogical workers who are interesting in tracing back family history in Germany should take advantage of the present unusual opportunity." –Deseret News 1933

Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany http://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424195771&sr=8-1&keywords=Moroni+and+the+Swastika

Here are a couple books to consider reading together. They can help him understand and deal with the pressures he's under, and also help you know what he's going through.

• [Leaving the Fold] (http://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Marlene-Winell/dp/1933993235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464644226&sr=8-1&keywords=leaving+the+fold), by Marlene Winell.
  
  
• [Recovering Agency] (http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464644338&sr=8-1&keywords=recovering+agency), by Luna Lindsey.

Here is a great book about it:

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

It wasn't just Smith Jr and the peep stone (whitewashed to "seer stone",) there were lots of other magical practices the Smith family engaged in. From dowsing that has been scrubbed from the D&C (now listed as the "Gift of Aaron", you know, the one with the staff that allegedly turned into a snake?) to animal sacrifice and the nature of the solstice and what it had to do with recovering the mythical golden plates, the Smiths were deeply engaged in folk magic and the occult. Smith Jr had a Jupiter talisman in his pocket at his death that you can get a replica of today on eBay, and hairs from his and Hyrum's head were placed in walking canes that can be seen at the Daughters of the Pioneers museum today.

One more thing: Smith Jr supposedly learned how to scam people use a seer stone from another seer, Sally Chase and (allegedly) used her stone to locate his first one. I believe it was simply an attempt to legitimize his own scamming by showing he learned from another confidence schemer. Smith Jr never found any treasure that was recovered with his peep stone other than the golden plates, which no one has ever seen, including none of the 3 or 8 witnesses or anyone else. And where are the plates today? Taken away in to heaven? Really?!?

2 great books, on this topic.

1. An Insider's View on Mormon Origins
   https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922636&sr=8-1&keywords=insiders+view+of+mormon+origins
   
   
2. Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847
   https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/dp/194414109X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540922568&sr=8-1&keywords=mormon+counterfeiting
   
   In summary: Joseph, and others, were heavily involved in conning others. This was their thing. These were not honest farmers trying to make an honest buck. They swindled people. The gold plates were just another con that eventually worked its way into a religion (only after Joseph couldn't sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in order to make some $).

Apologists have overused the term "so called scholars" and "so called archaeologists" when dealing with people presenting evidence against the church while not being accredited PhD holders. They attempt to undermine the evidence by looking at the credentials of the person presenting information rather than the material claims of the information.

The defense of the Book of Abraham is often full of this flimsy tactic. Any criticism against translation or historicity of the Book of Abraham commonly asserts that unless you have a PhD in Egyptology, you are not qualified to talk about the BoA authoritatively. If you do have a PhD in Egyptology (Dr. Robert Ritner, "The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition" ), the argument will be waived away as a misinterpretation while assuring everyone else that the church is still true in this arena.

Check out the response of the current professors of UCLA to Muhlenstein's claims.

Next should be Professor Ritner's book The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Editon

Oh yeah, and while ancient languages are never an exact science, the Rosetta Stone makes study of Egyptian Hieroglyphics possible, much more so than just guessing.

In short, no scholar outside a small group employed by BYU and/or apologists for TSCC find the writings on the parchment remotely related to anything about Abraham or Joseph.

Try Krakauer's other well known book Into Thin Air, and because there's some controversy regarding his version of events, also The Climb by Anatoli Boukreev who was a major player that day.

Krakauer's other book Under the Banner of Heaven is a good "true crime" style story about some Morman murders, but may not be enough like Into the Wild to appeal to you.

Over the Edge of the World is more of a history, covering Magellan's circumnavigation of the earth. It was facinating and definately had intrigue, machinations, and survival elements.

Another book on exploration and survival, Endurance: Shakleton's Incredible Voyage

And another one, Fatal Journey: The Final Expedition of Henry Hudson. I think this is the one I read, but I can't be certain. It doesn't seem to be as well regarded, but i thought it was still interesting.

A book on diving and survival: The Last Dive, Chowdhury

The Hot Zone could be thought of as science survival. Anyway, you'll probably love the opening bits in Africa, although it does slow way down after that.

Far away from survival, but still about travel are the wonderful Bill Bryson's travelogues. Witty and informative. In a Sunburned Country and A Walk in the Woods are particularly recommended.

> Being in Utah, this is a topic that's often alluded to but not often discussed from the Masonic perspective.

Firstly, There's not much to discuss. For generations, we discriminated against Saints, sometimes passive-aggressively, sometimes aggressively. In 1984, this came to an end. No matter what lies we tell ourselves to justify this, the truth remains a) we did it and b) there is never justification for discrimination or lies. Those are the facts. We were wrong. Period. End of discussion. To delve into it beyond owning our guilt to is to delve into speculation and rationalization and fall into attempts to obviate our wrong-doing.

Secondly, within the community of mainstream American Masonry, it is generally frowned upon for Masons or Masonry to comment upon any religion.

Thirdly, I don't think anyone here can truly appreciate what it was to be LDS or non-LDS in a small outpost city, well beyond the safety of the border of the US, in a desert, next to undrinkable water, in the mid-late 19th century. So, even if Masons or Masonry could realistically and justifiably comment on the LDS faith, we can never really understand what it was to scratch out a life in those days.


Now, from the other perspective, I think there may be something to be explored. The current go to resource is Homer's Joseph's Temples. It isn't perfect, but within the discussion of faith, nothing ever is.

DISCLAIMER - Not LDS despite having spent large portions of my life near Batavia, and in Missouri and SLC, UT.

Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet. Written by a non-Mormon scholar. Well done.

Do you know much about Elder B. H. Roberts? He's the church historian I respect the most. Leonard J. Arrington, who was a church historian and is often called the "Father of Mormon History", called B. H. Roberts "The intellectual leader of the Mormon people in the era of Mormonism’s finest intellectual attainment."

Well, Elder Roberts had this to say about the Book of Mormon: “There were other Anti-Christs among the Nephites, but they were more military leaders than religious innovators… they are all of one breed and brand; so nearly alike that one mind is the author of them, and that a young and underdeveloped, but piously inclined mind. The evidence I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as their creator. It is difficult to believe that they are a product of history, that they came upon the scene separated by long periods of time, and among a race which was the ancestral race of the red man of America.”

“If from all that has gone before in Part 1, the view be taken that the Book of Mormon is merely of human origin… if it be assumed that he is the author of it, then it could be said there is much internal evidence in the book itself to sustain such a view. In the first place there is a certain lack of perspective in the things the book relates as history that points quite clearly to an underdeveloped mind as their origin. The narrative proceeds in characteristic disregard of conditions necessary to its reasonableness, as if it were a tale told by a child, with utter disregard for consistency.”

“One other subject remains to be considered in this division… viz. – was Joseph Smith possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon from such materials as have been indicated in the proceeding chapters… That such power of imagination would have to be of a high order is conceded; that Joseph Smith possessed such a gift of mind there can be no question….In light of this evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are found in the ‘common knowledge’ of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work as Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews [published in Palmyra in 1825], it would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.”

That's directly from A Study of the Book of Mormon by Elder B. H. Roberts. Buy it here.

This book is specific to Joseph Smith, but No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith is fantastic.

I know that the literature you are allowed to read on a mission is very limited. However, before you go, you could do some research on Joseph Smith as a person. He was a very colorful character, and had an extremely interesting life. Sometimes you have to go outside of official church doctrine on him to get the full picture because they don't want their prophet to look like what we all are: flawed human beings.

Myself, I am a non-believer. However, even with the flaws Joseph Smith had, I don't think that precludes anyone from believing that his message has value.

Edit: http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1405797598&sr=8-4&keywords=joseph+smith

I would STRONGLY recommend this book. I feel it gives a balanced account of his life. It's not a book that tries to demonize JS, nor a book that portrays him as a perfect, godly man. It's just a book that tries to get at what his life was all about.

Rough Stone Rolling would be a good place for her to start. You might enjoy it as well. It was written by an LDS historian, so it shouldn't be too scary, but it does tell a slightly different story than what we'd typically hear from the Church. It's not a book that's likely to convince her the Church isn't what it claims to be, but it could help her to see that the Church isn't particularly forthcoming with a lot of its history, and get her thinking on those terms.

It's like scientology + 200 years.

The Mormon Church started as a cult but has since slowly been absorbed by mainstream american society and has dropped some of the worst cultist practices.

It still works pretty much as a cult and includes subtle manipulation techniques capable of turning your head on itself. There's a very detailed book written by a former mormon on this. I strongly recommend it whether you join or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937

I've read A View of the Hebrews. I recommend reading B.H. Roberts' Studies of the Book of Mormon first as a primer. There are significant historical knowledge gaps between the time View was published and our own and I found Roberts' work helpful in bridging those gaps. Roberts set out to answer a few simple historical questions about the BoM that a member had written in to a GA...

Reading View will get you:

• a firsthand read at what was probably the source of a lot of major thematic points of the Book of Mormon, rebutting FAIRs claims of no connection; and,
  
  
• firsthand read of numerous and very specific pseudoscientific linguistic and cultural theories that were considered credible at the time the BoM was written, which have since been discredited, and which were incorporated into the BoM by the author(s) of that work.
  
  Reading Roberts work provides:
  
  
• firsthand knowledge that when FAIR characterizes Roberts' work as a piece of "devils advocacy" they are lying;
  
  
• a well-articulated summary of early concerns with BoM anachronisms (linguistic, anthropological, metalurgical, and agricultural/animal husbandry);
  
  
• strong evidence to the theory that Joseph Smith incorporated material from his life/social milieu into the Book of Mormon;
  
  
• examples of overt and thinly disguised plagarism from the Bible;
  
  
• analysis of simplistic and superficial stories/teachings of the BoM;
  
  
• Roberts' retelling of how his findings went over with the 12 and FP when he shared them with that body; and,
  
  
• all of this written from a perspective of faith from a President of the 70 who died in full fellowship, was church historian, who literally wrote The History of the Church and was formerly a strident defender of the Book of Mormon.
  
  Your husband might read Roberts work with you or on his own, given that he probably has a copy of Roberts six volume History of the Church and doesn't consider that anti-Mormon (in fact it's quoted extensively in official church publications.)
  
  Best of luck.

B.H. Roberts in Studies of the Book of Mormon documents how Joseph would entertain family and friends with long tales of the early inhabitants of the Americas. And don't forget, he didn't do it in a few months, he had four years from the first visit of the angle until he was allowed to get the plates. Thinking about the story, maybe even writing notes. It wasn't magic, like the church would have you believe.

You should read An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. It feels less amazing when you take out the parts that could be found in his own back yard.

Also consider the method by which the Book of Mormon was "translated".

It was done the same way Joseph would look for treasure. How successful was he at that? That method of treasure seeking also got him in trouble with the law.

Read Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.

An Insiders View of Mormon Origins written by a former employee of the Church Education System. It got me out.

EDIT: A little more detail. This guy graduated from the church-owned BYU with a Masters in History. Many of the things he's written in this book have been confirmed by the church itself in the recent "Gospel Topics" articles.

But, TBH, these kids won't be able to read anything you give them. As missionaries, you are limited to a small set of books, no newspapers, no movies, no music. If you want to really make them think, you could ask some questions about the Book of Mormon itself. 2 Nephi 5:21 states that dark skin is the result of a curse from God. 2 Nephi 2:22 states that there was no death or reproduction before the Fall of Adam, which Mormons believe happened about 6,000 years ago. The introduction of the Book teaches that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the book from the Gold Plates. In reality, he used a rock in a hat, an illegal practice used by con-artists known as scrying. Good luck!

For the past year I've had regular conversations with the missionaries who work in our area. In an effort to understand their beliefs I've gone through several books, among which is Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, which deals with issues like the authorship of the Book of Mormon, the golden plates, and other hot-button issues. Palmer, an active Mormon, ends this book with the conclusion that Joseph Smith probably never translated anything correctly; that the Book of Mormon is an amalgamation of the Bible, 19th-century doctrine, and his own fruitful imagination; and that some of the foundational events (such as the First Vision) were the result of elaborations over time. Yet Palmer does not reject Mormonism and instead calls for a renewed focus on Jesus Christ.

When it comes to the question of whether Mormons are Christians, I think we must tread cautiously for two reasons. First, Jesus said that it's not our place to decide whether someone else is saved; that authority belongs to Jesus alone. Second, Mormonism is a spectrum like any other system of thought. Someone like Grant Palmer could identify as Mormon while clearly demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit that always accompanies saving faith. In the same way, it's possible for someone to identify as Christian and yet clearly fail to keep in step with the Spirit.

I tend to think that if Paul were to write a letter to the Mormon church today, he would write something like his letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were given the plain and simple gospel, yet they were convinced by a rogue sect to add on all the burdens of following the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. Did Paul consider the Galatians to no longer be Christians because of this? I don't see a clear indication of this. What is clear is that Paul insisted that the gospel remain absolutely pure, even if an angel brought a different gospel. This is a good lesson for the Mormon church as well as Christian denominations.

What keeps Mormonism going is not the evidence for their faith (since there is little if any at all), but their reliance on emotions (the "burning in the bosom") as a sort of spiritual divining rod for truth. Random chance will ensure that some small fraction of people will get a positive answer to their prayers, even if it's purely coincidental. The fact that emotions are so untrustworthy is precisely why Jonathan Edwards preached against the dependence on one's emotions as proof of conversion nearly a hundred years before the Mormon church was founded.

The aspect of Mormonism that most concerns me is not its unique beliefs, but its tendency to produce atheists. It seems to me that most Mormons who leave their faith because of the lack of evidence also assume that Christianity, on which Mormonism claims to be based, has just as little evidence in its favor. I firmly believe that Christianity is an evidence-based religion, and so I spend a lot of time talking with the missionaries about the reliability of the New Testament and the historicity of Jesus's resurrection. They may never leave Mormonism, but if they do, I want them to see that Christianity is a rational choice.

I think this was just published, hadn't seen it here yet. Many of you may have heard of Robert Ritner, a respected never-mo Egyptologist who has taken a special interest in refuting the bad scholarship coming from LDS hacks. He actually trained John Gee, who is one of the main LDS scholars that defends the BoA and was cited in the latest essay. Ritner takes personal disappointment that Gee has become a shill for the mormon party line, and I think that helps motivate him to stay engaged long past the point that he needs to.

Ritner published a book on the BoA that I recommend if you're interested in all the gritty details: http://www.amazon.com/The-Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri/dp/1560852321

The linked response essay contains the important points from the book, and is written as specific refutation to the church essay. It's succinct and devastating enough that it might be a good candidate for sharing with friends and family.

According to D. Michael Quinn in his book, Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power, he estimates that that church members payed $33 billion (with a "B") in tithing donations in 2010.

I did some back of the envelope math a few weeks ago, based on estimated activity rates in the United States, family size, and median income, and came up with just over $3 billion in tithing donations. If the United States is home to 41% of the global Mormon population, and if D. Michael Quinn is right in his guess, then I seriously underestimated my assumptions at about $7 billion in donations.

What's interesting though, is that the church is more wealthy as a corporation than a religion. They have investments in agriculture, real estate, properties, farming, stocks, and much more. Some estimate that the church is worth more than $100 billion, and if so, tithing is making up anywhere from 20-35% of its total revenue.

But the church is bleeding members, and to lose 1/3 of your income would be a serious financial setback for the church. With that in mind, it perfectly clear why the church leadership is spending so much time focusing on "stay in the boat", and other related topics.

But I prophesy that in 100 years, the "Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" won't be a religion any longer, at least not as we know it, but instead will be a literal non-profit, tax exempt, run of the mill charity. It'll be more akin to the Salvation Army than Protestantism.

Alas, I believe it has been pushed back to August. :(

> Is the book of Mormon peer reviewed?

Start with By the Hand of Mormon by Terryl L. Givens, Understanding the Book of Mormon: A Reader's Guide by Grant Hardy and The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text by Royal Skousen.

These are three independent works, all published by reputable academic presses (Oxford and Yale) by scholars whose scholarly credentials have landed them academic positions at accredited institutions of higher education.

If you want the real deal, start here and learn and see academic scholarship at it's finest painting a majestic picture of this incredible text.

I'm almost always juggling reading material. At the moment I am reading Neuromancer by William Gibson, and Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. Just finished reading Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet by John G Turner, which I highly recommend.

No, I don't equate everything to Nazi Germany. I was recalling something I MIGHT have read in a book about Mormonism in Nazi Germany. And, yes, I do actively try to inform myself politically.

The reason you were downvoted is because you come across as uninformed.

I recommend you pick up the book [Recovering Agency] (https://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484835604&sr=8-1&keywords=recovering+agency). It goes into depth on how the Mormon church controls its members, and the psychological, emotional, family and social struggles they can face in separating from it.

Thank you for being willing to support her.

> Why are there no pictures of the tablets or other evidence? Cameras existed at the time the tablets were discovered.

Perhaps I can help a bit (but I'm not trying to take away from the OP; he can probably answer these as well; just noticed it had taken a while to get to this one and I was raised LDS, though I should announce here that I really do not have much trust in the Church's faith claims anymore; however, I'm trying to be factually accurate here and present factual answers; let me know if you have problems with it). Cameras (daguerreotypes) indeed had been invented around the early 1800s, but they certainly were not popular enough to warrant photographing a backwoods farm hand and his divine golden book. Instead, Joseph Smith got together some of his family and friends (and, in turn, their family members) (and one highly influential farmer who ended up losing his farm and his marriage over the whole deal) as witnesses to the plates. The two pre-prepared statements described how an angel showed three of them the plates and that later another eight were given the plates to handle by Smith. However, while everyone signed, a few were uncomfortable at signing something they had not themselves written. Many of these witnesses later left the LDS Church and a number of them either attempted to start their own churches or joined other split-off movements and became witnesses for scriptures and artifacts produced by other prophets. Almost none of them supported Brigham Young in any way as Joseph's Smith successor. However, none of them ever retracted the entirety of their statements in support of the Book of Mormon.

> Also why do Mormons believe that Native Americans are Jews who now have dark skin as a punishment? DNA testing has proven that Native Americans are not Jews but from Siberia.

Mormons believe that because that is what the Book of Mormon teaches, although nowadays it's quite popular to talk about a "nuanced" view of the cursing such that the dark skin is the sign of the cursing and that the actual curse is to be removed from being influenced by God's spirit. This particular nuanced view developed quite recently (probably within the past fifteen years or so). In the Book of Mormon, the first major author is Nephi, the youngest son of a family which lived in Jerusalem around the early 500s BCE. They are inspired by God to leave before the destruction in 587 BCE. His brothers, Laman and Lemuel, are described as wicked, though Nephi, who writes autobiographically for the first section of the book, is unable to ever explain exactly why his brothers are wicked or what their actual sins are apart from "rudeness" at one point and later trying to kill Nephi because they're tired of him, as the youngest brother, attempting to usurp leadership of the group. They cross the Arabian peninsula, Nephi is taught by God how to build a boat, and finally, completing years of travel, they arrive in the New World. Eventually the family splits into two groups of people, Nephites and Lamanites, and the Lamanites soon get cursed by God and receive a "skin of blackness". God explicitly tells Nephi that the purpose of the skin of blackness is so that the Nephites will not find the Lamanites "enticing", and God tell Nephi "I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (You can read all of this in 2 Nephi 5.) (EDIT: And, if you're interested, there's a fascinating book just published that attempts to study the Book of Mormon from a literary perspective instead of a historical or theological one that goes into far more analysis of the Nephi character, both as narrator and as dramatis personæ. It doesn't always succeed in avoiding historicity, but it's a fun read nonetheless. And I say that as a disaffected Mormon.)

As for the DNA testing, apologists have tried to show for nearly the past three decades that the text of the Book of Mormon implies the presence of other peoples in the Americas besides the described tribes of the Book of Mormon (Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekties, and Jaredites). Technically, though, this view requires a very careful reading of a text which is never really that clear about describing other peoples already in the Americas. A few years ago the LDS Church changed the wording in the book's introduction from saying that the Book of Mormon was an account of the "principal ancestors" of the Native Americans to saying that it was an account of people who are "among the ancestors" of the Native Americans. It's usually pointed out that the introduction is not part of the revealed text and can thus receive occasional improvements and fixes, and it is also usually argued that the text, which chronologically ends in the early 5th Century CE, doesn't make any explicit claims as to the ancestors of modern Native Americans (though I find this personally untrue; the Book of Mormon seems, to me, to give a strong indication that Native Americans are Lamanites). Even so, many Mormons still hold to this view of Native Americans being principally Lamanite in origin, which even extends to the idea such ancestry among Polynesians. And while many LDS apologists also love pointing out the difficulties of dealing with American populations before the cataclysmic arrival of Europeans, nowadays you'll find that most educated Mormons in genetics and anthropology accept the DNA findings as accurate and either simply assume that the Book of Mormon peoples comprised very small populations that were absorbed completely by the larger surrounding populations or explore other options for appreciating the Book of Mormon beyond a historical approach.

> Is this why Mormons actively tired to keep Blacks out of any high position in the church until the 1960s?

Actually, no, that's a different skin-blackening and/or cursing. Mormons view the mark given to Cain in Genesis 4:15 as black skin (though, again, you'll find modern Mormons differing from the majority of historical Mormons in emphasizing that the mark is described as being given to prevent Cain from being killed and is thus a positive thing). This mark was preserved through the flood by Ham, one of Noah's sons, and by Ham's son Canaan who is himself cursed by Noah in Genesis 9:20-27. This belief wasn't solely a Mormon belief, but was quite common among 19th Century Christian churches. However, Mormon scriptures add to this doctrine extensively from a different record, the Book of Abraham, which is supposed to have been written by Abraham himself. Abraham describes how the Egyptians are descendants of Ham and that through this lineage "the curse" was preserved through the flood (Abraham 1:21-24). He also describes how Pharaoh (which is an anachronistic term to be used in Abraham's time of around 1800 BCE), while being a pretty cool guy, is cursed as to having the Priesthood (the authority of God, in Mormon-speak) (Abraham 1:26-27). So, from these scriptures most Mormons of the 19th and 20th Centuries assumed that black people could not be ordained to the Priesthood. Prophets such as Brigham Young spoke about this and proclaimed that black people would never receive the Priesthood until Jesus Christ returned at the end of this world. The Church felt that, since this cursing from the Priesthood was governed by lineage, nobody with any amount of black heritage was allowed to be ordained to the Priesthood, which automatically invalidated them from holding any leadership position in the Church from the local levels up. Even when historians in the 20th Century rediscovered that Joseph Smith apparently had no problems ordaining black men to the priesthood, the LDS Church continued to point back to Abraham as the source of its doctrine. Then in 1978, after years of public outcry and on the verge of a new Temple about to be opened in Brazil with little to no Mormons able to attend (people with black ancestry of both genders, as well as white women who married black husbands, could not attend the Temple for ordinances that Mormons consider essential to achieving their fullest potential in the worlds to come), the Church announced in June that ordination to the Priesthood was now available to all worthy males (the Temple restrictions also went away, but without any fanfare). In later retrospection, most of the authorities involved in the decision describe the "good feelings" they had in considering removing the ban, but the change did not involve anything stronger for revelation (no visions, no angels, no audible voices from heaven). Most Mormons view the announcement as proof of continuing revelation, and the letter written to announce the change was eventually placed into Mormon scriptures, though there is no actual "Thus saith the Lord" revelation for the change.

Hope this helps. I tend to write long because context can be very useful in answering these sorts of questions.

I want to second /u/amertune's motion for the LDS Institute manuals and /u/lispbliss's suggestion of Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon.

To those I would add both of the Mormon-related contributions to Oxford's A Very Short Introduction Series. There is one about The Book of Mormon and another about Mormonism generally.

Here is my Top 10 list:

1. The Original Manuscript of The Book of Mormon
   
   
2. The Printer's Manuscript of The Book of Mormon
   
   
3. The First Edition of The Book of Mormon (E.B. Grandin version)
   
   
4. The Book of Mormon: A Reader's Edition (Grant Hardy version)
   
   
5. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (1981 Version)
   
   
6. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (2013 Official online version)
   
   
7. The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text (Royal Skousen version)
   
   
8. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (1920 Version)
   
   
9. The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ (1994 Official MP3 version)
   
   
10. The Book of Mormon (Penguin Classic version)
    
    Honorable mentions: Le Livre de Mormon; The Book of Mormon (Moroni's gold plated version); Book of Mormon Stories (children's edition)
    
    

Not about serial killers, but I would say they were somewhat psychopathic..
Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer.

I highly recommend Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. He wrote The Perfect Storm, Into to Thin Air, among others. It's not complimentary of Morman ideology or their political influence over Utah. Despite that, I admire a lot about their culture.

This Book has an excellent read on the whole thing. The Mormons were basically a barbarian horde as they crossed the country.

To further read on the awful foundations of the Mormons, the Mountain Meadows Massacre will make your blood boil.

This one is legit.

http://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young-John-G-Turner/dp/0674049675

Thanks for mentioning us pre-internet pioneers of exmo-ness.

I left in late 1995. Made the mistake of reading Richard S. Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History"

I felt so guilty for reading that book. But, I just couldn't put it down. It was the first time I felt like someone was giving me a real picture of Joseph Smith the man, not the myth. Decided I needed to balance out what I was getting in Van Wagoner's book with something more "church approved." Went to Deseret Book. Asked the girl working if they had anything on polygamy. She said she thought they had one book- they did. It was the book I was already reading.

That was the moment I took the red pill. There was no turning back and the floodgates were opened. I then read:

• No Man Knows My History
  
• Quest For The Gold Plates
  
• By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus
  
• Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders
  
• Secret Ceremonies
  
• Where Does It Say That?
  
  And then I started checking out copies of Sunstone and Dialogue.
  
  I started checking out some of the articles at Utah Lighthouse Ministries and made one trip to their book store, but I was already becoming an atheist and I didn't really like how they weren't just trying to debunk Mormonism but also trying to sell born again xianity.
  
  By November of 1996 I was already attending a Unitarian Universalist congregation and also pretty much an athiest at that point.
  
  When stuff like MormonThink came along, I was already pretty much post-Mormon. And, when I discovered r/exmormon, I was suddenly surprised at how much I liked watching what was happening here.
  
  I'm always surprised at the announcements people make about being done with this place. But, then I found it when I was already over all the emotional rage at having been deceived. I think I just like watching the train wreck at this point. People's posts here really give me the sense that Mormonism is imploding at a rate faster than this stodgy institution is prepared to deal with- makes me happy.

All three of your professors points are rubbish. If language had evolved as much as he it said it did then Egyptologists wouldn't be able to interpret the countless artifacts from the same period. Is he really saying that the BOA is the only artifact that is different than all the others? Look up the Book of Abraham on Mormon Think. But for an excellent book, and one that answers each of your professors assertions then this one is in my opinion one of the best. Even though it is from the 90's it still holds up today.

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539867049&sr=8-1&keywords=By+His+Own+Hand+Upon+Papyrus

The Book of Mormon at 531 pages.

An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon is also interesting, despite its flaws.

Rough Stone Rolling

I'm not sure if your friend already owns or has read this book, but it is a really interesting balanced view of Joseph Smith. It talks about some of the more difficult issues in early Mormonism, but explains them in a way that leaves room for belief.

"Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532

In Sacred Loneliness: the plural wives of Joseph Smith

Relevant to the latest essay.

That phrase from the temple ceremony was autobiographical. JS was not an original thinker as much as he was very well-read and very tuned in to the philosophies of men and the theological trends of the day. You could have taught your class using Grant Palmer's excellent book.
An Insider's View of Mormon Origins https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851570/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_api_4r3sxbY6AYSPN

Go read "This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology" by Charles R. Harrell. It is the best topical summary of the evolution of LDS doctrine available, written by a believing but uncorrelated BYU Engineering professor.

If you're interested in the changing claims about God that developed in Joseph's lifetime, I wrote a few blog posts documenting my findings and resources:

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part I

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part II

Darwinian Deity: The Evolution of the Mormon Concept of God – Part III

You must be new here. There's no need for people critical of polygamy to exaggerate how shady it was. The truth, as told even by LDS scholars, it quite damning. If you read enough of it, you may leave the church or you may stay, but I guarantee your current view of your religion will not remain intact.

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/

https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Wives-Joseph/dp/156085085X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1475096207&sr=1-1&keywords=in+sacred+loneliness

A thorough description of Josephs lies and deceit surrounding polygamy. ISL

https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Wives-Joseph/dp/156085085X

Check out the book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View if this sparks your interest.

The Mormon church is rich as FUCK.

And they are one of the few established religions that take $$-making so seriously as to schedule annual settlements with their members.

I like the pre-prohibition Mormonism that dealt in the occult like Jupiter Talismans, seeing stones, completely mis translated papyrii (the PoGP sure is a fun read), and other cool out-there shit.

Post capitulation (ditching polygamy for statehood, changing/enforcing the WoW during prohibition, Elohim deciding black people were cool as of '78) Mormonism is boring AF.

This is the good stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Actually....

Magical beliefs were prevalent in the US during this time. Smith was not the first. There is an amazing book by Michael Quinn called Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

Hi! There is something interesting about this meme, from a historical point of view. Apparently, the initiates donned the robes (etc) to receive the first token of the Aaronic priesthood.

I quote this text from Salt Lake temple president George F. Richards who was appointed to revise the ordinances:

[3 June 1922:] I took 7:20 [a.m.] car for my work at the temple. This day [Saturday] I went before the [First] Presidency and presented to them an important change in the endowment ceremony by which the robes should be placed on the left shoulder first and then changed to the right shoulder once only before entering the Terrestrial room; also that Aaronic and Melchizedek be used instead of lower order of the Melchizedek and
higher order of the Aaronic. I am to come back with a definite recommend of the Presidency of the Temple. This is my own suggestion. Other members not accessible today.
(end quote)

And here is the text of the official announcement which reveals the old an new order:

"June 7, 1922--REGARDING THE ROBES OF THE HOLY PRIESTHOOD IN THE ENDOWMENTS CEREMONY:

Taken from the minutes of a meeting at the office
of the First Presidency. Presidents Grant, Penrose and Ivins being present. I represented having discussed with associates in the temple the advisability of instituting a change in the procedure of
placing the Endowment Robes on the individuals receiving endowments the present method being to first place the robe on the right shoulder, subsequently change it to the left shoulder, and
later again back to the right shoulder. The proposed change would be to place the robe first on the Left shoulder, and retain it there until after the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood has
been given, then to change it to the Right shoulder, in conformity with the giving of the Tokens of the Melchizedek Priesthood, thus obviating one of the changes heretofore made, and more
effectively indicating transition from the lower to the higher orders of the Priesthood.

"After considering carefully the proposed change, the [First] Presidency decided unanimously that from that time on the Robe should first be placed on the Left shoulder, and be
changed to the Right shoulder at the time the Endowment candidates are going to enter the Terrestrial World room. The necessary changes in the text, to conform with this decision, are to
be made in the new books of rules, etc. that are to be issued to the Temple Presidents.
(Announced to Temple workers in meeting held 14 Aug. 1922.)"

(end quote)

So if this meme is to depict a pre-Aug-1922 ceremony, the placement of the robes is correct.

At least from 1984 on, (the year I received my endowment) the first token of the Aaronic is given without the robes, only with the apron on.

References: text taken from Buerger's book
https://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Godliness-History-Mormon-Worship/dp/1560851767/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483443442&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=the+mysteries+of+godlinnes

$35.43 when you preorder on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

So tempting.

Sir you need to read this: http://www.amazon.com/This-Is-My-Doctrine-Development/dp/1589581032

I wish a great deal more members and critics would read it. It is phenomenal and caused a drastic readjustment for me.

You might be interested in Michael W. Homer's "Joseph's Temples" https://www.amazon.com/Joseph%C2%92s-Temples-Relationship-Freemasonry-Mormonism/dp/1607813440

It's an interesting story & dynamic. Being in Utah I know a lot of LDS folks (and a few LDS/former LDS Brothers) but have never encountered such a frank discussion as in that text.

Plugging a book by one of my favorite authors: Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven.

Provides an in-depth look at Mormonism and relates that to religious zealotry in general. IMHO it is up the with Christopher Hitchens for the Atheist reading list.

President Romney will make it legal. Read Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer.

It seriously is. It's unique in a way that no other denomination is like, and is such a distinct historical occurrence in that the circumstances which surrounded it created a completely distinct culture in the matter of only decades.

Edit: For anyone interested in a good historical book on the early LDS movement that I've been reading (a secular outlook that gives both the main LDS narrative and secular criticism/realism): Pioneer Prophet by John G Turner

Lots of people here are or have been in the same boat. You are not alone.

Focus on your relationship with your wife and kids. Most people recommend going very slowly with spouses. You will have to bring up your issues some day. If nothing else your wife may notice your change in attitude. The critical thing at that point (or before that point) is to make sure your wife knows that you love her. You are questioning the church, not your marriage. Many TBMs have trouble making that distinction.

The second most important thing is that when you do start talking to your wife about church issues is to make sure she does not run to her family for advice. That is one reason to start slowly at the very edges. Ask that she keep your confidence. Cultivate the idea that this is something that the two of you have to work out together, and that family interference will only make it worse. It is the two of you against the world.

A family member or close friend leaving the church might be an opportunity to talk about why they left. I know you said that your families are uber TBM, but don't be surprised if someone does come out as ex.

One thing you might do is get a copy of No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie. It is an old book. Get it in paperback and let your wife see you reading it. Encourage her to read it with you.

I think the book used to be sold at Deseret Books, but I don't see it on their website. It might still be available in a brick and mortar store. Here is the Amazon link if you can't find it an official church site.

The video says that you wouldn't be able to do research.

That's BS. I didn't watch past that. If they are going to make stipulations like that, assuming Joseph didn't have access to some sort of research, or a pre-written book even, than I could care less what other shit they dribble on about.

If you have time to read a book, No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie covers a lot on the authorship of the BOM. Truthfully though it wouldn't matter what books or websites you gave your brother, as a true believer he has to deny all evidence contrary to his beliefs.

*Grammar

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith Paperback – August 1, 1995

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

I was coming to say this exact thing! I'm about 1/3 into it and it's SO fascinating. I live in SLC, so I went to his author event when the book came out at Wellers Book Works. He had a lot of pictures and things on display, gave a great talk, and there was some really great Q&A and discussion. It's by David Conley Nelson.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0806146680/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1467557842&sr=1-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=moroni+and+the+swastika&dpPl=1&dpID=51LtvDcQJnL&ref=plSrch

Most members/exmos don't know about it, because the church doesn't talk about it.

Start here.

I recommend that you read this article and that you read this book.

An excerpt from the article:
>Sometime after Henry and Zina were married, Joseph told Dimick Huntington, Zina’s brother, the story of why he was compelled to introduce plural marriage, and asked that Dimick tell the story to Zina. As Zina is quoted by one author to have said, “Tell Zina I have put it off and put it off until an angel with a drawn sword has stood before me and told me if I did not establish that principle [plurality of wives] and live it, I would lose my position and my life and the Church could progress no further.”

I would also add that Celestial law supersedes the Levitical law.

I suggest reading those things and go to the Lord about it to give you peace.

I too had questions about this and have been patient in receiving understanding. [D&C 50:40] -
>"Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth."

Ummm I'd suggest just reading the actual book

That's how you're going to get the best answer. I read it and it was a huge factor in breaking my shelf because I think it's obvious he knew the BOM was bullshit (or at least that it wasn't literally/historically true).

I hear Mormon Enigma is pretty good.

They don't even know Joseph Smith.

Get started here. http://mormonthink.com/ Then check out this book. http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540 Next I'd move onto http://www.amazon.com/History-God-000-Year-Judaism-Christianity/dp/0345384563

and This is a big help for developing some critical thinking skills: http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469

The Mormon church fit in relatively well with Nazi Germany; it is yet another sad chapter in the history of the church.

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474484978&sr=1-1

So maybe a copy of Uncle Tom's Cabin, then . . .

Only you will know the best approach. The church has tons of weak spots. It's just that people place value on different things.

To discredit the Book of Mormon itself as a historical document, start with a couple of simple websites. I really find the Wikipedia page on BOM anachronisms to be a great starting point. It's an avalanche of evidence in short form. If this is her "one thing" have her go down the list and discuss each item on the page. How does she explain the elephants? The metal currency? The animals that shouldn't be there and the animals that should have been in a book set in the ancient US? If the Book of Mormon can be shown to be a work of fiction, the rest unravels.

To discredit Joseph Smith as a person who produced divine scripture, read By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus. It's not too long, and because we actually have the original text used to produce the Book of Abraham, it's very easy to prove that what Smith produced was a bunch of made up bullshit.

To draw attention to the fact that Joseph Smith was a serial rapist who abused his spiritual authority to have sex with women who trusted him, all the while going behind his wife's back, send her to Wives of Joseph Smith. In Sacred Loneliness is excellent and extremely thorough, but the book is also the size of a cinder block and can be off-putting to someone only willing to read one thing.

To point out historical spin on polygamy, you could discuss the following:

• Remember that awesome story about how Smith ordered Heber C. Kimball to give his wife Vilate over to him as a plural wife, and Kimball handed her over like chattel? The church teaches this as some kind of great show of faith, completely glossing over the fact that Vilate was not property to be given away and that just a few months later Smith was fucking their 14 year old daughter instead.
  
• Remember that tragic story of martyrdom where Joseph Smith was dragged out of his house to be tarred, feathered, and nearly castrated, and then one of his adopted twins died? Gee, why would they want to castrate him? Could it be because he was having sex with women he wasn't married to, putting them at risk for rejection by society? One of the mob members that night was a brother of a girl Smith had recently propositioned, so his actions were what caused the death of the baby. Chew on that for a while.
  
• Remember why Joseph Smith was in jail for that last time? Yes, it was for violating the First Amendment. He ordered the destruction of a printing press because it created the papers that revealed all of the fucking around he had been doing. The publisher of that paper was William Law, his counselor in the presidency, who had spent years defending Smith against charges of polygamy and only learned the truth when his own wife was propositioned. William Law was doing nothing but telling the truth about Smith's behavior, and Smith's own lawless actions in trying to cover up polygamy are what brought him to his death.
  
  The polygamy issue is a rabbit hole of ugliness that nobody can unsee. It's possible your wife is genuinely unbothered by it and wouldn't care how many women and girls Smith raped, but I want to believe if she has any conscience at all that her stomach will turn once she sees what is behind the curtain.

Not sure if this fits under your definition of "world religions" but Mormonism is currently undergoing an interesting, scholarly reassessment of its history. Mormons have a pretty unique and (if I may say so myself) fascinating cosmology that you may enjoy learning about. If you're interested I would start by reading Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling.

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532 - Rough Stone Rolling - The best biography of JS that I've ever read.
http://mormonthink.com/ - Probably the best researched and least partisan resource.
http://20truths.info/ - 20 Truths about Mormonism

P.s. have you heard of this book? It's been very helpful as I deprogram. Understanding the cognitive biases that make us susceptible to manipulation not only helps me to process what I've been through, but will hopefully guard against future manipulation. Highly recommend it.
Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control https://www.amazon.com/dp/1489595937/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_jY00DbE2X2MNF

Here is is a classic:
https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272

This video is excellent:
https://youtu.be/GAGasQ7j_ZI

You can buy his history here:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Church-Volume-Joseph-Smith/dp/B002Q7IP48

His article mentioned is in this book (I think): http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-Brigham-Madsen/dp/1560850272

But the mention that the Book of Mormon being written by Smith is best quoted here:

http://www.mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm#bh

You can go to the Marriott library Special Collections dept on the 4th floor...just ask them about the BH Roberts stuff, they will be glad to bring you tons of stuff...that I am sure that the church doesn't like people to know about. You can also buy his writings now. The book is called Studies of the Book of Mormon...here is the amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560850272/qid=1091914132/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3960798-7723963?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith https://www.amazon.com/dp/156085085X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_8C5LybY8TYZ4Q

The author was LDS when he wrote it.

Bret Metcalfe’s Book demonstrates how the first books of the BoM were produced at the end of the “translation “ process after the rest of the book had been written because of the loss of the 166 pages Joseph continued on and did not backtrack to first produce Nephi until the end of the process. He shows how the specific details about Christ were written after the later portion of the story had been produced and how vague Joseph is in the first few books with names and places and the story as he perhaps could not remember the names or details written in the 116 pages of the book of Lehi.

Dan Vogel’s you tube accounts demonstrate how the BoM directly deals with issues in Joseph’s home and family issues in an attempt to bring family together on theological issues and draws on the popular issues of the day such as the presumed advanced lighter skinned peoples who were responsible for the mounds and advanced civilizations they observed.

Michael Quinn’s Early Mormonism and Magic World View truly provides the context for Joseph’s treasure digging and how the BOM fits into the magic world perspective even to the day Joseph looked for the plates to have significance in the magic calendar. It is not valid to view the history without the magic overlay.

The most important thing to discuss is the spirit and elevation emotion see https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/08/premium-fix-faith-crisis-one-weird-trick-wood-vs-steel-tools/


https://www.discoverbooks.com/New-Approaches-to-the-Book-of-Mormon-Exploration-p/1560850175.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjw753rBRCVARIsANe3o44oLXnpzGkS8gnEgABdjlmH8YPThwelpNYor5d3N75kKSd8g662I3waAjxbEALw_wcB

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv91bBcxP_pnTAArZuIJqFUPuj8zS2Xwa

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

I don't believe there is. However, on Amazon's listing you can send feedback to Audible requesting an audio version. The link is on the bottom of the right hand column.

>Looking for the Audiobook Edition?
Tell us that you'd like this title to be produced as an audiobook, and we'll alert our colleagues at Audible.com. If you are the author or rights holder, let Audible help you produce the audiobook: Learn more at ACX.com.

If you read grant palmer's book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" at the same time you read rough stone rolling you can identify more issues. They both address the same problems to some degree but bushman spins it in a pro-mormon way while palmer spins it the other direction.

It is actually quite fascinating to see how two scholars interpret the same facts totally differently.

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

If you want to learn more, this book does a good job examining the evolution of temple worship.

I actually happened to be in a position to visit the Kirtland Temple today (great tour by CoC volunteer -- not preachy or any awkward HeartSell attempts or commitment patterning.) There is a book/gift shop in the visitors center that I took a few minutes to browse around.

This book was for sale: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1560852321?ref=olp_product_details

I confirmed with a volunteer that CoC doesn't accept the Book of Abraham and was told that most visitors are LDS so they stock applicable books... but I'm guessing that book wouldn't be too popular with the typical Deseret Book customer. (They also had Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.)

Amazon gives the date of February 15, 2017. https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356/

I'm not sure how reliable that is

No idea, but some links for context:

February: http://signaturebooks.com/wealth-and-corporate-power/

June: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1560852356/

That's a different book. He's talking about This Is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell, a BYU professor.

http://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369261705&sr=1-1&keywords=this+is+my+doctrine+the+development+of+mormon+theology

Joseph’s Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism http://www.amazon.com/dp/1607813440/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

I haven't read this yet. I plan on buying it and reading it soon.

I read the following book and found it to be incredibly detailed in addressing the topic:
Joseph’s Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism


TLDR (if you don't want to read ~500 pages...) Masonry has no real connection to antiquity, just myths based on references to biblical persons/events. Joseph stole all the core ideas from the masons, and they were not at all happy about it.

Not mormon specific, but there's a great one called Talk Origins (play store link, couldn't find it in iStore) that goes through a lot of creationist claims in a FAQ way.

I've also got the kindle app for whenever I'm bored - you can email yourself documents and it'll sync across multiple devices. Quite easy to load up a bunch of eBooks ahead of time to have a read through. Mormon wise, Under the Banner of Heaven is excellent, as is It's Not About the Sex, My Ass.

Not to be critical, but I was raised in a religious household, and I started to question the doctrines of the church and the bible when I was a teenager. What was it that allowed you to believe so strongly and so blindly for so long? Was it your choice, or do you feel like you were manipulated into a sort of blind faith even into adulthood?

Also, are you all familiar with ["Under the Banner of Heaven"] (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FC1R2S?btkr=1)? Krakauer is a great author who really tried to give the history of the Church an even handed analysis, and as an outsider, I think he succeeded greatly. I don't think it was well received by LDS though.

She may not know about Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry. You might try reading this book, In Sacred Loneliness, by Todd Compton, a believing Mormon. It talks about how Joseph Smith coerced young girls (14 year olds, dude) and already-married women into marrying him. Then, discuss.

Women don't like this one bit.

As for Freemasonry itself, you will have to be very discerning with the information you come across, and especially on reddit.

In the Golden Verses of Pythagoras, it is said,
>
> -> 30. Never do anything which thou dost not understand.
>
> -> 31. But learn all thou ought'st to know, and by that means thou wilt lead a very pleasant life.

I advise against joining Freemasonry as a means to contrast it with Mormonism. A prominent feature of the Mormon temple ceremony is the trade of oaths with penalties for guarded information. This is also present in Freemasonry, and though they would portray themselves as benevolent, there is much to cast this into doubt.

I'm happy to direct you towards information relevant to your search. Maybe this information is not exactly what you are asking for, but I'm sure it will broaden and deepen your understanding of the topic at hand.

• 
  Joseph Smith and Kabbalah:
  The Occult Connection by Lance S. Owens
  
• 
  Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn (Amazon)
  
  Both of these works were rigorously researched and have cited sources. Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View has over 300 pages in notes and sources. It is my opinion that if you don't have an understanding of the esoteric, occult foundation of Mormonism, then you don't understand Mormonism.
  
  Personally, it has allowed me to temper my understanding of Early Mormonism and the actions of my ancestors. For some, learning this may only condemn it further.
  
  After finding the edges of the current popularly held views of scientific materialistic reductionism, we are left looking at chaos and nondeterminism with wonder. There are so many evidences that our universe and our existence is much more meaningful than society would admit. Without passing judgement on the details of early Mormon history, I now have greater context for understanding it.
  
  If you should find yourself lost in searching for answers within the paradigm of linear thinking, send me a message. I have found that some of the greatest minds have been marginalized or silenced for embracing nonconforming, nonlinear, nondeterministic thinking.

I was just looking for both of these on Audible, too. Thanks for the tip to request the audio version. I just requested it for both, too. I'd appreciate it if others did, too:

http://www.amazon.com/An-Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/

I’m an exmormon! This book will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about Joseph Smith and his magical practices.

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Also, if you want to know why members like me are leaving, this website explains all the dirty laundry of Mormonism.

Cesletter.org

A relevant passage about Joseph Smith and magic in the ces letter:

“In order to truly understand the Book of Mormon witnesses and the issues with their claims, one must understand the magical worldview of many people in early 19th century New England. These are people who believed in folk magic, divining rods, visions, second sight, peep stones in hats, treasure hunting (money digging or glass looking), and so on.”

If you have any more questions about the real story of the book of mormon without being preached at, feel free to ask me or the exmormon subreddit.

Feel free to skip over my essay, and down to my recommendations. The essay is intended to add some context for someone trying to understand mormonism from the outside.

The mainstream branch of mormonism, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is starting to diverge significantly from its historical roots. The folk magic/occult practices found at the church's origin are now considered completely foreign and abhorrent. The same for the practice of polygamy, it is disavowed and a distant memory within the mainstream church. The membership hardly remembers how central of tenet plural marriage once was. It isn't a relevant part of the religion anymore.

The original church is being watered down and the rough spots sanded over and evened out. The temple rituals originally included some very disconcerting elements and language. They have been significantly revised over time. First, they modified their nude bathing initiation to be a semi-nude washing off with a small hose. Now, as I understand it, all washing is omitted. Initiates are allowed to wear undergarments and not be naked under a sheet. Now, the officiant doesn't touch the initiate at all, if I understand correctly. Also, the death oaths for revealing the secrets of the temple are gone, as is the oath of vengeance against the United States of America for not preventing the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

The personal priesthood interviews to determine worthiness are another thing that is being changed and toned down within mainstream mormonism. The change is being driven by new order mormons, NOMs, who are putting their ward bishop on notice that they won't tolerate the bishop asking invasive questions of their children. I don't think that would've have gone over very well when I was a youth in the church. My parents would have been excommunicated for trying to dictate terms to the bishop. Still, today, I assume that some bishops would not accept terms presented by the NOMs.

I believe studying the church's origins helps to show that the church is not the one-true church that many of us have been taught that it was from birth. Studying the early history shows their practices were even more cultish than today. That said, outsiders would still consider their current secretive, masonic-based temple rituals plenty cultish, though.

Outsiders need to be able to separate its history from its current practice. Except for the temple, the LDS church's Sunday and weekly worship services are standard fare, albeit with a significant time commitment each week. Most of their services are about propping up their mythology, with some socialization- getting to know one another thrown in. They don't delve too deeply into any troubling elements of scripture, or of church history or former practices. The lessons are standardized by committee. Certain topics are definitely too hot to handle. If I were to say one thing about it, I think church is now more about being one of the ways that is used to present their family into the community, especially in highly mormon communities. It's a way to primp and preen, and try to impress the neighbors. Parents thoroughly wash, dress, and parade their families before the other members of the ward. The goal is to appear to be the perfect mormon family. To add the final piece to the puzzle, the family must fall into line and prove they are worthy of respect, that means regular participation in temple rituals. To be eligible to attend the temple, the member must affirm they agree with and try to follow the current theology of the church 100%, but mostly that boils down to agreeing to pay 10% of their income to the church. At this point, I think the temple rituals are a lot like Tevia said in Fiddler on the Roof in the lead in to Tradition! They don't know why they do those rituals, but it was good enough for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, so it must be good for something. The faithful would say it is a requirement to seal a legal agreement with god; it is buying an insurance policy that says families are forever.

I'll stop here, except for stating that a new dynamic is emerging in the church. People are quitting, either by simply not attending (going inactive), or by formally resigning. Issues like the church's support for prop 8 begin to call into question whether the church is on the right side of history. They see the tremendous cash outlay required to build their mall and wonder whether the church is making the right kind of financial choices for a so-called charitable organization. As noted above, these issues can lead a member to begin to question whether their church is everything it claims to be. Is it the one true church? That question runs headlong into the buzzsaw of early mormon history. The information is available online that shows that it is not what it claims to be. Of course, this type of research can lead to loss of faith. What happens when only one partner in a marriage learns the truth? How should young adults respond to their parents' expectations for them knowing that missionary work for something they don't believe in is not something they are wiling to do? How should young women attempt to break out of the rigid sex roles and limited life plan offered by mormonism? I discovered these existential, heartbreaking, and painful experiences detailed here on this subreddit. The politics of how to deal with that fallout when the blinders come off and people face a new reality is what the subreddit is mostly about. It provides a new community for those who are looking for a new worldview, free from the clear cut and rigid worldview presented from childhood as the truth.

Recommendations

• Brodie's No Man Knows My History
  
  
• Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, which you've read.
  
  
• Bhattacharya's Secrets and Wives
  
  
• Church Administrative Handbook, Instruction for stake presidents and bishops. (In two volumes: one is publicly available; the other is available if you look hard.)
  
  Next on my reading list:
  
  
• D. Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
  
  I am about halfway through with Jessop's Escape, which you've read.
  
  Other media:
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 200: top ten changes to the temple
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 176: top reasons to leave mormonism
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 175: top reasons to stay in mormonism
  
  
• Mormon Expression Podcast # 192: Community of Christ, the most liberal branch of mormonism, by far.
  
  Other subreddits you might like to take a look at...
  
  
• exit stories
  
  
• bestof exmormon
  
  

Not only are the borrowings not well known among Mormons, but even those who do hear of the close resemblances between Mormonism and Freemasonry and their rites often denounce those who suggest a relation. D. Michael Quinn was excommunicated from the LDS church for his research into and publication of the similarities between Mormonism and hermeticism and the influences of the latter upon the former, as others historians have argued as well. I should add that Quinn still believes in the LDS movement, even after his excommunication.

I really liked An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, despite the somewhat clickbaity title.

SECTION | CONTENT
:--|:--
Title | Jehovah's Witnesses v. Mormons - Ep. 1 - Faith versus Faith (with Jonathan Streeter)
Description | In this new series I explore the similarities and differences between Jehovah's Witnesses and other high control groups. First up are the Mormons, with ex-Mormon vlogger and blogger Jonathan Streeter answering my questions about the various beliefs and practices of the LDS Church. Resources mentioned in the video: 1. LDS.org Official Gospel Topics Essays: https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng&old=true Essay acknowledging that Joseph Smith married 14-year-olds and other men's wives: https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true 2. Rough Stone Rolling: sold in official church bookstore here: https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-rough-stone-rolling-richard-l-bushman-5351?variant_id=104298-paperback On amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532 3. Insider view on Mormon Origins, on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SP990KXWHKW4G8ZH8G8S  4. CES Letter: http://cesletter.com/ 5. "Letter for my wife and children" - similar to CES letter above, but with a softer tone. More accessible. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B18W3AgWXw6zMUllRW85bXc0RWc/view 6. FAIRMormon Apologetic website: https://www.fairmormon.org/ 7. Exmormon Subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/ 8. Mormon Stories Podcast: http://www.mormonstories.org/ 9. Jonathan’s Website: http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVTCFh3uDMH0GZlwl1JOoHQ FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/ThoughtsOnThingsAndStuff/ 10: Mormon Spectrum (for finding local support groups): http://www.mormonspectrum.org/  Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/cedars Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cedarsjwsurvey Buy my book, "The Reluctant Apostate": http://a.co/5qFN4JU
Length | 1:30:08






****

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If you haven't studied "anti-Mormon" sources, you can't claim you aren't any of those things, because that's part of it. The constant reminders to only get your information from the church. That is one of the biggest elements of indoctrination, brainwashing, and sheltering.

They're preventing you from doing thorough research and frankly, it's not our job to digest all of for you. The problems with the church are so numerous there is no way anyone is going to be able to lay them all out for you in a comment on a reddit post. Asking us to tell you why we left is not evidence you weren't indoctrinated if you refuse to go do the study yourself.

Most active members have no idea just how much information there is and that no, it is not spun. Here's a little bit of the history on why and how the real history the church is now trying to manage finally came out. There is a couple in Provo who have a Christian ministry basically dedicated to taking down the Mormon church. Around 1990 they published a pamphlet that talked about some serious stuff the vast majority of members didn't know, like Joseph's Smith polygamy. Normally the church wouldn't respond to these things, but they felt the claims were worrisome enough (getting questions from members) they needed to publish a response, so they invited two BYU historians into the archives (you know the ones in the mountain) to study ALL of the historical documents they had and write a refutation debunking the Tanner's claims.

For about two years Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel studied every document and took photos of each one, with the church's blessing. Problem was, not only did what they find back up the Tanner's claims, but the actual history was much worse (things like Polyandry). They did write a rebuttal, but it was rejected by the Q15 and they were told not to publish anything at all, ever. More than twenty years later the essays on lds.org the church finally published to at least be a little bit honest are right out of Vogel and Quinns essays. By being a little bit I mean, if you not only read the essays, but then follow the footnotes, well. It's not good. The Saints book is the same way. It doesn't out and out lie, but talk about out of context and leaving out very important information if it's too faith challenging. It's still not fully honest. Not even remotely. Shouldn't the church have to be as honest as they expect the membership?

Being historians, not publishing and keeping it all a secret didn't sit well with them and they published anyway. In fact, Dan Vogel made all those facsimiles of all those documents, thousands and thousands of them, available to any other scholar wanting to pour through them and publish their own findings. For their trouble they were excommunicated as part of the September Six (google it).

Many (maybe most on church history) of the anti-Mormon books out there directly source these documents and you can even get them yourself. Dan Vogel published all of them in several volumes called, "Early Mormon Documents." The goal was to publish all the source material he and Quinn had collected without editorial comment. I'm not sure how much more objective it can get or how any Mormon can claim the stacks of books that came out of these are not sourced or dishonest.

If you want a summary list of the major issues, and it's a long one, you should download the free pdf version of the CES letter on cesletter.org. Then read the rebuttals over on Fair Mormon. Then read the rebuttals to the rebuttals.

When I left, a nice summary didn't exist, so I had to read books and boy did I read a lot of them. I happened to start with Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, which is well sourced out of the RLDS archives, but I also read Grant Palmer's, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. Incidentally, he was another BYU professor excommunicated for publishing the irrefutable truth. Keep in mind, these people were active members. They were not trying to tear down the church. They simply felt it was morally wrong to continue to have blatant and significant inaccuracies in teaching manuals, in conference talks, in Seminary, in well......everything.

My reading list (those I can remember at least):

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet (A Biography)

No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith

The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power

Mormon America: The Power and the Promise

If you still think everything other than what is directly published by the church are anti-Mormon lies or tricks, well I can help you there at too. How deep have you gotten into Journal of Discourses? It's almost worse than anything written by an anti-Mormon. So much worse than a couple of troublesome quotes. I also re-read the D&C while reading Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith in tandem. It was a lot harder to swallow that way to say the least and both of those are obviously considered faithful study.

​

If you want to claim you aren't brainwashed or indoctrinated you have to do the work. Saying "I posted on Reddit and no one convinced me," or the other favorite, "people much smarter than me have already studied all that and say its fine," are not valid arguments. They're lazy cop outs.

​

Good luck on your search for truth. I encourage you to study it out from ALL sources, including faithful sources you haven't yet studied.

​

edited to add: Forgot one of the most important. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith

edited edited to add: If you want something a little more biased for the church you can even just read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. If you're going to read the D&C and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith at the same time as I did, I recommend at least reading this one first. It's going to be much clearer if you've read at least one of the biographies and Rough Stone Rolling was published by Deseret Book.

Depends on the "TBM" you ask I suppose. Its not a book that is trying to expose the church or anything. Its pretty much just an academic work. Its not just about the Second Anointing. Its about the history of temple worship in the church generally. He's careful to use sources that are/were public at the times they were released and he doesn't even give any of the ceremonies away as they stand today. Its pretty evenhanded but revealing. Much of it goes into the Masonic roots of the temple for example. That alone could make it seem "anti Mormon" by many members. If the truth is anti Mormon, then this book is anti Mormon...

Here's a link: Mysteries of Godliness

I've read about this on the sub before here.

But I have yet to see the source. The claim is from this book, which seems fairly well-sourced.

Not a rebuttal of Nibley's book, but covers pretty much everything you need to know. http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

A freebie from Ritner: http://signaturebooks.com/a-response-to-translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham-by-dr-robert-ritner/

Try this book. It's much more current and scholarly. The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560852321/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_LtKDxbS6XFRGG

Law of attraction isn't mormon doctrine, by the way. Some Mormons do add a bunch of junk woo on standard LDS beliefs though. I know people who use astrology, crystals, cupping, and a big trend is essential oils. It's not Mormonism though. Just a general non-skeptical credulity problem.

As far as getting your friend out of the TBM mindset, here's a few tips:

• beware the backfire effect. It's real and powerful. If you come at it directly, he will retrench and push you away.
  
  
• Create cognitive dissonance. Research issues of racism and homophobia in the church, show him you're a great person and be open and conversational about yourself. He will probably slip into a non-orthodox view and feel totally conflicted about his church just by having a good friend who happens to be gay and atheist. This is enough for a lot of people, without any additional prodding. They work through their cognitive dissonance by gently accepting and then embracing and defending their friends even when it means accepting the church is wrong here. And then it becomes acceptable to question the church, since if it is wrong here, why not on other issues as well? The domino effect.
  
  
• If he proselytes or invites you to Mormonism, use this opportunity to ask thoughtful questions. I wouldn't bring up the CES letter since that's too direct but I would respond to his invitations or conversations with relevant questions. Make sure it's not a dynamic where he's defending the church, but about his beliefs. So questions like, "I read there was a policy change in November 2015 that said children of gay parents would not be able to be baptized until they were 18 and disowned their gay parents' relationships. Do you feel comfortable with this policy?" Or, "I read that there's elements of pseudepigrapha from the Bible that were in the Book of Mormon, but those passages were misattributed to Isaiah and the actual authors lived later than Lehi's exodus from Jerusalem so there's no way Lehi would've had those writings. Were you taught about this anachronism?" It's tough, since to really get into the major issues you kind of have to know a ton about this obscure religion. That's why it's escaped major critical analysis by the big hitters outside the faith: it's just too small and obscure to have an outsider really strike down TBM testimonies.
  
  Best I've seen from an outsider is Philip Jenkins' takedown of the Book of Mormon as a historical record and Robert Ritner's book on the Joseph Smith Papyri (Book of Abraham).
  
  
• Retrenchment into Mormonism may be a sign he's struggling with some issue, not that he's super TBM. I've found some of the most "faithful" people in the church are struggling with their sexuality or with their beliefs or their ability to keep the rules so they feel guilty or broken. It's a last-ditch effort to make it work, and going on a mission is part of that. They're told that if they buckle down and give it 100%, God can change their nature. It doesn't work, and some people realize this before a mission but I think most realize it after. Your friend may be going through a hell that is so hidden from view that it's impossible to see. And he likely won't let anyone know. So I suggest treading carefully and with compassion. Part of it is you don't want anyone to know because you feel intense shame and inadequacy, and even acknowledging there's an issue is defeat. There's also the fear of death that is a huge thing.

The idea that the script is somehow an ancient temple ritual was proposed first by Nibley I believe. Here's the long and short of it:

1. Ritner (university of Chicago) has translated the scrolls. There is a book you can by for $20 or so which tells you exactly what is on the scrolls. It's worth buying if you have any question. Parts of his translation were plagiarized by the BYU folks trying to translate the scrolls and it appears that it upset him a bit, but I digress.
   
2. Timing: Abraham would have lived about 2200 BC. The scrolls date to about 150 BC. So Abraham never got near these scrolls. But what is more, the scrolls can and have been accurately translated. There's nothing on them that has anything to do with Abraham, which the church admits in their gospel topics essay on Abraham.
   
3. What is perhaps more problematic is that most scholars believe that Abraham never lived. He is a mythical historical figure.
   >By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible historical figures.
   source
   
   
4. Moreover, the whole idea that ancient biblical temple rights are in any meaningful way connected to modern LDS temple ceremonies is a stretch. The LDS temple rights mix the creation story (4-6th century BC?) with masonic ceremonies from the 19th century (the basis of masonry being developed no earlier than the 13th century). There was no temple worship in early Christianity, as even apologists will admit (I have references if needed).

Please tell me one doctrine that hasn't changed during the history of the mormon church?

​

Here is your resource on all the changes.

​

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032

Can you afford to purchase the kindle version of this book? Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism...$15.99 USD on Amazon. I own a physical copy of this book and it was very informative.

If you're looking for something more scholarly, the book Joseph's Temples: The Dynamic Relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism might be good. I haven't read it yet, but it has been on my list for a while. There's an in-depth review of the book here.

The Case for God and The Bible: A Biography by Karen Armstrong are both good. The God Delusion is a simple breakdown and explanation of most major religious claims. Beyond Religion: Ethics for a Whole World by the Dalai Llama is an interesting book on ethics. The Koran: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Cook is 150 funny and insightful pages on Islam. Under the Banner of Heaven is a shocking and fascinating account of fundamentalist Mormonism. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan discusses religion, and Cosmos and Pale Blue Dot are my secular versions of holy books. And of course given the occasion, I can't leave out God is Not Great.

I recommend avoiding authors like Lee Strobel and Deepak Chopra. Both are essentially liars for their causes, either inventing evidence, or deliberately being incredibly misleading in how they use terms. Popularity in those cases definitely doesn't indicate quality.

If you want a new perspective on the Book of Mormon, I suggest Grant Hardy’s Understanding the Book of Mormon. In it he looks at the three narrators (Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni) and why they included what they did.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705

I believe that they are referring to The Book of Mormon: A Reader's Edition by Grant Hardy. His other book, Understanding the Book of Mormon is highly recommended by other redditors. /u/Karl_Marxxx

May be it would be helpful to point you to some honest source that seeks to give a non subjective and fair evaluation for the claims of the church.

1.   A book that provides a general view on how to go about thinking about hard church issues. It is really good. Entitled the Crucible of Doubt by Teryl Givens: https://www.amazon.com/Crucible-Doubt-Reflections-Quest-Faith/dp/1609079426/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=crucible+of+doubt+givens&amp;amp;qid=1561524835&amp;amp;s=books&amp;amp;sr=1-1<br />

   
   

2. My favorite book to start thinking very thoughtfully and from an academic perspective on the book of Mormon. Incredible stuff. Entitled “Understanding the BOM” by Grant Hardy: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KBX8MX63A88H3GCBCHYR
   
   
3. My favorite book on early church history focused around the life of Jesus Christ. Written by the renowned Columbia U History Professor Richard Bushman. Entitled Rough Stone Rolling: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400042704/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=richard+bushman+rough+stone+rolling&qid=1561524690&s=books&sr=1-1
   
   
4. My favorite book on modern day church history. It is a careful look at the David O McKay era with incredible source material. It completely changed my view of how the upper echelons of church governance works, but somehow at the same time strengthened my faith in our very fallible leaders. Entitled The Rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince: https://www.amazon.com/David-McKay-Rise-Modern-Mormonism/dp/0874808227/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+rise+of+modern+mormonism&qid=1561524807&s=books&sr=1-1

I think it is Grant Hardy's book that talks a lot about the necessary opposition that Nephi writes into the Book of Mormon. About the importance of that opposition to the overall importance in teaching the doctrine contained. That Lamen and Lemuel and very 'flat' characters because their depth of personality and character is unnecessary to the goal's of Nephi's writing, to bring its readers unto Christ.

But, it is unlikely it was really that simple. Lamen and Lemuel were not really that unreasonable outside a few occurrences in their reactions and which of us haven't acted quite unreasonably at times. That it's more possible they were traditionally obedient Jews and saw their father as out of line (I mean, even Nephi needed to come to terms).

I haven't watched the episode yet, but your comment alone has me pulling it up right now.

Edit: u/atari_guy, apparently this video link is unavailable.

Highly recommend reading a good book together with your wife written by LDS women about Emma Hale Smith. It will help you both appreciate Emma's perspective and is well researched. It's called Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith. http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914 It was sold in Deseret book stores. There shouldn't be too much about this that threatens your wife but if read together can lead to interest in that time and good discussions together. This was very helpful for my wife and I when we were in a similar situation two years ago. Show more love now with your wife, your courage honesty and integrity will make a huge difference, that's what's real, that's what's good.

That was a fantastic book. In fact, I would recommend any of the author's other books, especially Under the Banner of Heaven.

Scott Carrier is absolutely brilliant on the radio, but I found this piece to be a bit unfocused. Reading it in his voice seemed to help a bit.

If you found this story interesting, I highly recommend Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven. Krakauer more deeply explores Elizabeth Smart's story, along with many more in an absolutely fascinating book.

On the lighter side, Dave Chappelle asks, How old is fifteen really?

I answer timidly both because I am a TBM and because I don't know anything about the psychology involved, but I'd say the idea that a Mormon would think "well if JS is wrong that's on him, not me" is pretty far fetched to me. We are each encouraged to gain, through personal revelation, a testimony that (among other things) JS was a prophet. We are encouraged to take personal responsibility for our own beliefs and actions.

.

All that said, the LDS church is definitely authoritarian on belief.

.

Regarding Mount Meadows, look up the history before assuming it was a result of people acting in response to Church authority. I'd recommend this book, by a non-LDS author.

If you enjoyed Fawn Brodie's book, I highly recommend the recent Brigham Young biography, Pioneer Prophet, by John Turner.

Brigham Young is incredibly fascinating in his own right, albeit for very different reasons from Joseph Smith.

Origin of Species, by Charles Darwin

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Species-150th-Anniversary/dp/0451529065

No man knows my history, by Fawn Brodie

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485453081&sr=1-1&keywords=No+man+knows+my+history

If I can find it in the UK I'm sure you must be able to find it in the USA: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0679730540/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_NKdjub0M3YDAK

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, you might as well read the book that started it all No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie.

I always thought the only known photograph of Smith was the one used on the cover of No Man Knows My History (got to love the hair do). We had someone do a presentation about this one at our temple visitor's center. He also compared the facial features in the photo to the death mask. Note, the version on the book cover is a painted replica.

Absolutely best historical account of it all coming to be is "No Man Knows my History" by Fawn Brodie.

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

Worth reading every page.

If you happen to like reading, and are interested in more on the history of Mormonism, I once read this biography of Joseph Smith called No Man Knows My History. It was actually recommended to me by a District Overseer I knew a long time ago, (he knew how much I loved to read) which was really the only reason I got away with reading it at the time. People would see me reading it and ask what I thought I was doing and I would just tell them the D.O recommended it to me and they would shut up. Anyway, it was fascinating, well written, and really just an interesting perspective on the history of the church.

I found my way out by reading about church history over the course of many months (I didn't know about about the CES Letter at the time). The issues never seemed to end and never had good explanations, and I finally could not keep trying to dig the church out of the pit it had created for itself.

Nothing can definitively prove that the church isn't true. I still can't prove it isn't true, but I have overwhelming evidence that it isn't. If you're 1) a reasonable, open-minded person; 2) read about problems in the church/church history; and 3) realize that it is illogical that a supreme being would allow and perpetuate these problems, then you'll find peace of mind in leaving the church. Try picking up a copy of "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie from the library. Hide it under your bed when you're not reading it--that's what I did :)

Leaving has removed an enormous burden that I didn't even know I was carrying.

This is the next book on my reading list. Moroni and the Swastika I've heard focuses on Mormons in Germany at the time but it could touch on what you're asking. Anyone else read this that can shed some light?

I really enjoyed this one about the book of Abraham: By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962096326/ref=cm_sw_r_other_awd_Fb.MwbRT8GJNH

It's on the book "by his own hand upon papyrus"

It's the first chapter. It mentions that people were starting to doubt Joseph Smith so they had to do something to revive the faith. When the mummy salesman came to town it was just what they needed: Show that Joseph could translate ancient documents.

Read the LDS "Gospel Principles" manual, located here.

You could also read "Rough Stone Rolling" to learn more about Joseph Smith and the Church's founding. Rough Stone Rolling is generally considered a reasonable account, by both ex mormons and active mormons.

Others have given good suggestions, but I'll add my own thoughts. First, let me recommend "Joseph Smith--History" which you can read here, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng. That is the canonical description of the initial events (visions, angelic visitations, etc.) that led him to found the Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints, and was written by Joseph Smith himself in the mid 1830s. If you have downloaded the LDS "Gospel Library" app for Android/iPhone, it's also available via Scriptures->Pearl of Great Price->Joseph Smith--History. It's just a few pages long.

Secondly, I recommend the Book of Mormon, which we view as a book of ancient holy scripture like the Bible. According to Joseph Smith's account, he was given the ancient record from an angel of God and translated it miraculously in 1829 (when he was 23), then returned the ancient record to the angel when complete. It describes God's dealings with a branch of the Israelites who migrated to the Americas around 600 BC. It's named after Mormon, who (according to the book) lived around 400 AD and was instrumental in compiling the records of the various prophets before him in addition to adding his own account. This book is core to my own personal witness that he was a true prophet. It's around 450 pages long, and as scripture it is fairly dense, so it's not just something you can read in an afternoon. You can read it online here, https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng, or in the "Gospel Library" app via Scriptures->Book of Mormon. Or, if you would like a hard copy, you can request a free copy here: https://www.comeuntochrist.org/beliefs/book-of-mormon-request. (Free books are made possible by donations of church members.) Someone else recommended a few chapters to begin with, which sounded good to me. I'll add a suggestion, namely 3rd Nephi chapters 11-27 where it presents an account of Jesus visiting these people after his death and resurrection in Jerusalem. And starting from the beginning is also not a bad plan. Certainly read the modern introduction and the testimony of the various witnesses who said Joseph Smith showed them the ancient plates from which the book was translated.

Thirdly, for a more in-depth historical view, I strongly recommend Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532. He's an award-winning biographer, and this is a fantastic book with a very complete description of Joseph Smith's life. (Also quite lengthy, but I found it easy to read.) To me it strikes a great balance between being respectful towards Joseph Smith and those who view him as a prophet (Bushman himself is a believer), and being historical and not afraid to talk about things Joseph Smith did which were somewhat questionable. It made Joseph Smith a very human figure to me. Most other accounts of Joseph Smith's life by contrast are very one sided--presenting only the good about Smith to argue that he was a true prophet, or presenting only the bad about Smith to argue that he was a fraud.

Good luck in your quest to learn more! Don't hesitate to ask more questions here.

Here is a multi-volume work of the history if the LDS church written by B.H. Roberts. It's like 80 years old so it is a bit outdated in a few areas.

Rough Stone Rolling is a biography of Joseph Smith written by Richard Bushman. It is generally considered to be the pretty good historically and is pretty well cited.

I also find Wikipedia to be a pretty good starting point for studying different topics in LDS history. Apparently there does end up being some editing wars for a lot topics so you have to be careful.

A new 4 volume narrative history of the LDS church has also been announced and will start coming out next year. That might end up being good.

Edit: just realised I didn't read your post well enough. I just gave you general history sources when you were asking for specific leads. Sorry about that. I hope someone else the info you're looking for.

Rough Stone Rolling. The author is a retired Ivy League (Columbia) history professor and a Mormon. The idea behind the biography is to tell the whole story of Joseph Smith, warts and all. The author cites extensively to journal entries, letters, newspaper articles, etc. written during Joseph Smith's life. This biography discusses many unflattering aspects of the founder of Mormonism, including Smith's: (i) polygamous marriages, (ii) marriages to underage girls; (iii) secret marriages to ployandrous women; (iv) the use of a magic rock and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon; (v) criminal charges for fraud; (vi) erroneous "translation" of Egyptian scrolls said to be written by Moses, later found to be common Egyptian funerary scrolls; (vii) substantial debts, the result of several failed business ventures; and (viii) Smith's lying and attempts to cover up all of the foregoing, which ultimately lead to his death.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1400077532?pc_redir=1413704830&robot_redir=1

I've read this one and found it very interesting.


https://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937

love those books, another great one and aimed at exmos Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control

Margaret Singer's Cults in Our Midst is a good one.

Luna Lindsey's Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control is worth a look (it does mention JWs too).

And Eric Hoffer's The True Believer should be in every right-thinking apostate's top pocket.

I have heard good things about Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon

I enjoyed Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon. It gave me some interesting things to think about while reading the Book of Mormon.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705

No but it is on amazon. Could also probably be found in most large public and university libraries.

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Book-Mormon-Readers-Guide/dp/0199731705

This bookby Royal Skousen put the biggest crack in my shelf. It costs money, but is an easy way to show people that a Mormon "scholar" knows all about this shit.

All great suggestions here! I just wanted to add that Royal Skousen's Earliest Text edition of the Book of Mormon is also a great option. No pictures or footnotes, but it flows really well and there is lots of space in the margins. The verses are broken down into what he calls "sense lines" and it makes it super easy to follow. I felt like I was breezing through it.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Earliest-Text/dp/0300142188

The best examination of this is Royal Skousen’s “The Book of Mormon: the Earliest Text.”

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Earliest-Text/dp/0300142188

That depends on what you think of academic works. I think it's super fascinating! But I'm into that kind of thing. Check out the reviews here! I use it as more of a reference than a straight through read. Most of the text is the Book of Mormon itself as well as textual comparisons of the extant original manuscript, printers manuscripts, and 1981 edition of the Book of Mormon.

For every example of crazy behavior among muslims I can give you an equally crazy behavior among Christians.

Here, enjoy:
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Story-Violent/dp/0385509510

(qualifies for Prime, and you can start reading it under a minute on your Kindle. THEN you will be qualified to do comparative religion studies :-)).

May I recommend a book for you: Under The Banner Of Heaven

Okay, I've seen this argument before:

>As we often have to point out, we're dealing with America in this case ... Yes, there are other religions. But the one we have to deal with day in and day out is Christianity.

First, that's a poor argument, because it implies that other religions do not exist in the US. The US is very diverse, and all these world religions that we're talking about are here as well. I've met plenty of Jewish people, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists (admittedly fewer Buddhists), so I've "dealt" with people from all these religions right here in the US.

Second, there is a /r/debateachristian subreddit. So if everyone agrees that this sub-reddit is really about Christianity, I don't see the point of it.

Third, even if everyone in this sub-reddit agrees that we're really talking about Christianity when we say "religion," that author (as far as I know) did not write that post exclusively for the /r/debatereligion sub-reddit. She posted to the open Internet, where there is no accepted convention that by "religion" we mean "Christianity." She still displays poor understanding of what religion is, and my previous argument stands.

Fourth, it is nonsensical to write "religion" if you really mean "Christianity." That approach harms the debate because you're using a word with a clearly different meaning than the one with the meaning you intend. Just write "Christianity" if that is what your argument refers to.

Then, you wrote "I think the insights still hold" so I'm going to offer a counter-example from a religion that is not Christianity. Buddhism does not involve faith. A Buddhist only adopts teachings that have been directly experienced.

After that paragraph, you seemed to go back to "religion" = "Christianity," so I'll respond in that way. You wrote:

>The point is that when religion inspires bad behavior, it's a uniquely powerful method for rationalizing such behavior. No appeal to the earthly consequences makes a difference.

I think there are cases of what you're referring to, but they are exceedingly rare. You're talking about people who commit violence and continue to commit violence because God told them to (it seems, correct me if I'm wrong). It's true that things like the events described in "Under the Banner of Heaven" do happen in the US. But not often. And not disproportionately for religious people. Again, I would say there must be far more people committing crimes like that because they're mentally ill than because they're religious. For most religious people, an appeal to earthly consequences definitely makes a difference.

Thanks. I recently finished reading Under the Banner of Heaven and my head is still spinning....and I was raised Catholic, so that says a lot.

While currently reading this book, I'm guessing Mormon.

I have to recommend Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of a Violent Faith. It's written by John Krakauer, and parallels the story of the foundation of Mormonism with this crazy murder committed by two fundamentalists. Incredible book.

https://www.amazon.com/Brigham-Young-John-G-Turner/dp/0674049675

Alao Emma Smith: Mormon Enigma.

I found it on amazon. I think its up to the publisher as to whether it can be released as an e-book.

http://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411662535&sr=1-1&keywords=no+man+knows+my+history

Interesting, the melodramatic effects were really annoying though...

Everyone on this subreddit needs to read No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie if they haven't already.

• 
  Which part of the mormon movement do you belong to? Community of Christ? Temple Lot? Bickertonite? Strangite? Cutlerite? Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? How do you know that your particular branch is the true church?
  
  
• 
  Have you ever read "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie?
  
  
• 
  What is your opinion on the origins of the Book of Abraham? Specifically, how do you rectify the fact that the original papyrus that Joseph Smith claimed to translate was found in the 60's and accurately translated by Egyptologists, and it had nothing to do with anything J.S. said it did?
  
  
• 
  Have you ever seen any of the 3 Nephites, or heard stories about them?
  
  
• If polygamy was made legal in the United States, do you think that the LDS church would have another "revelation" and allow it for their members again?
  
  
  
• 
  Have you been to r/exmormon?
  
  

It's just under $14 on amazon.

I would suggest giving a bit more time since many of us on here have limited hours in the day to read.

By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson

Quick read, great full color foldout photos of the papyri (best available anywhere, I believe).

No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326

https://www.amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

This is a particular difficulty in Mormon history--for a long time anything put in print seemed to have an extreme bias one way or another. In recent years there seems to be a greater effort in Mormon Studies in adhering to better historical standards that I think result in better, more accurate, and less biased narratives. Personally, I don't think I'd use Krakauer as a source because he's a good writer, but not a historian.

I think better sources to use would be:

Richard Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling (2005). Bushman was a history professor at Columbia University and is a Mormon. His bio of Smith will likely be considered the "standard" bio for years to come. It's a bit longish, but I think it's very readable regardless if you are Mormon or not.

Robert V. Remini's Joseph Smith (2002) is a quick read--a lot shorter than Bushman and a good overview. Remini was a history professor at the University of Illinois and is not a Mormon. He's best known for his massive biography on Andrew Jackson, a contemporary of Smith.

Fawn M. Brodie's No Man Knows My History (1945) is old, but is still often referenced. Brodie was a history professor at UCLA. She was raised Mormon, but was later excommunicated. Her book is a psychobiography which is a historical approach that has largely fallen out of fashion these days.

I'd definitely recommend looking at josephsmithpapers.org. It is an on-going publication project that is putting digital images and transcriptions of all of Joseph Smith's personal papers as well as the papers produced by his clerks under his direction. You'll find letters, revelations, early editions of the Book of Mormon, and all sorts of stuff! I'd take a look at Smith's own personal history written in 1832, and his history begun in 1838 and continued over the years even after his death and finally finished in 1856. (For more info on these specific documents, be sure to read the text under "Historical Introduction" in the bottom half of the pages.)

Another good narrative on that site is the book written by Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith. You can find the published 1853 version here. (Skip most of the early stuff--she spends a lot of pages talking about her own parents and childhood. While interesting, it's probably not pertinent for your paper.)

The site also has a good overview of Joseph Smith's life and his papers written by Richard Bushman and Dean Jessee too.

There are a lot of academic journals out there too that will have articles about various aspects of Joseph Smith's life or of his contemporaries (in no particular order): BYU Studies, Journal of Mormon History, John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, Mormon Historical Studies. You can find articles in BYU's Studies in Mormon History database and I bet JSTOR or other places probably have some of them.

If you need help finding info on a specific aspect on Smith, feel free to send me a message and I'll try to help best I can.

While I don't consider it to be a cult, the history of Mormonism is extremely interesting, as is the life of it's founder, Joseph Smith.

A good book written by a member of the church is called "Rough Stone Rolling." Another great one by a non mormon is called "No Man Knows My History"

I thought you were making some shit up but you are correct:

From Moroni and the Swastika Book Review

"Chapter Five focuses on how Mormons used their strong belief in genealogy, which they used to provide sacred saving proxy ordinances for deceased family members, to ingratiate themselves with the Nazis, who had a strong belief in genealogy, which they used to determine an individual’s racial purity and whether or not they would lose civil rights or even be imprisoned. Chapter Six is called “Mormon Basketball Diplomacy in Hitler’s Reich”. It covers the German hosted 1936 Olympic games and gives details on how Mormon missionaries were the early coaches and trainers for the German Olympic basketball team. "

Photo

Buy the book

"The rise of the Hitler movement in Germany caused a great many to fear that religious activity and missionary work would meet with disastrous opposition. Since the National Socialist party have come to power, a few sects have been prohibited or restricted, but activities in the 'Mormon' church have been carried on about the same as before. As a matter of fact, a number of interesting parallels can be seen between the church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists."

So began the fawning Deseret News op-ed dated Dec 9, 1933. That article can now be viewed here:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=x5dOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0LUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2672%2C4026967

And what were those parallels between Mormonism and Hitlerism? "Fast Sunday" and the "Word of Wisdom". American Mormons could see Mormon theology fulfilled in Hitler's government policies. Clearly, the line separating church and state was not so clear at that time in Mormon eyes.

But wait... there's more: Blood purity. Just as the Mormons of the 1930s were particularly careful that not a single drop of Negro blood gets access to the Melchizedek Priesthood, so were the Nazis very careful that not a single drop of Jewish blood gets into their veins. So the Nazis were quite pleased to know that Mormons can be extremely good at looking into German genealogy charts.

"Many of those who felt the greatest anxiety about being able to carry on their religious activities are finding that at least one branch of their church work has received its greatest boon since Germany’s adoption of Hitlerism. It was always difficult for Genealogical workers to get into the archives of the recognized church to trace back family records. When the pastor learned of the intention access to the records was often denied. Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact, some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.

All genealogical workers who are interested in tracing back family history in Germany should take advantage of the present unusual opportunity."

So did the Mormon church take advantage? I think an entire book was written to answer that question.

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680

It takes a socialist to recognize a fellow socialist. Mormonism was born out of Protestantism but nurtured with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's utopian socialist ideals. In the 1930s, these ideals were still pretty much alive. At that time, the US government under Franklin Delano Roosevelt had embarked on the most ambitious socialist expansion of government, and it had all the appearance of success. FDR and Hitler's Nazi Germany were still allies. The Mormon Church didn't see anything wrong with socialism and being friends with fellow socialists. Why would it when the whole idea was such a rousing success?

Joseph did posses a stone that he believed helped him see things which were hidden. His translation was initially through the Urim and Thummim, and as he learned to use that easier, he used his stone, and at some point probably no stone at all.


I don't have sources handy, so hopefully someone else will post some. A great book with tons of sourced info is Rough Stone Rolling. Fantastic book.

It's interesting to hear NOMs or other apologists explain this. Richard Bushman acknowledges this, but somehow passes it off like it would be expected of a boy from back then.

After all, the world was very different back then. He was a good boy from the country. /s

> Can you think of any parts of the Smith narrative that don't fit with the sex-and-power idea, outside of trivialities?

Have you ever read anything about Joseph Smith from a sympathetic perspective? I don't mean apologist literature. I mean work that is actually trying to understand Joseph Smith, rather than to support a preexisting thesis. Things like Rough Stone Rolling, In Heaven as it is on Earth, American Crucifixion, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, etc. When the events of Joseph Smith's life are put into their full, rich historical context, it quickly becomes apparent that J.S.'s motivations were complex and variegated. Certainly sex and power played a role, but so did sincere, intense religious belief, a desire to unite and redeem his family, and a firm conviction that God was working through him. For instance, the money digging events can only be understood when put into the context of early 19th century folk religion, as Quinn does in Early Mormonism. This is not an avaricious Joseph Smith, but someone who is trying to help lift his family out of poverty using methods of folk religion that were ubiquitous in the region.

It seems to me that you are having a bit of a crisis of faith /u/villaged . I'm sorry it took me so long to figure that out about you.

Joseph Smith was a guy that was far from perfect. Changing the story of the First Vision is only the tip of the iceberg. If you'd like to learn more about the man the founded Mormonism I would recomend stopping in at Deseret Book and picking up Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard L. Bushman. This is a book that is great for folks that are not sure about Mormonism and don't want to read any "anti-Mormon" literature. If you'd like to learn more after that you can wander into the Utah Lighthouse Ministry and speak with the awesome folks there.

Another wonderful resource for folks that have questions is New Order Mormon. The moderators of the board there work very hard to keep the discussion open and to help folks get honest and well researched answers to their questions.

As for me personally, I left Mormonism almost 10 years ago because I couldn't stay in a church that was (in my opinion after doing my own research) lying to me about its founding. I don't believe that Joseph Smith had a vision of God and Jesus, and I think he was a con man that started a religion. I think that Brigham Young was a tyrant that forced people to do his will and he put them in situations where they had no choice but to follow his commands.

That being said, I love Mormons. Most of my family is Mormon and many of my closest friends are Mormon. I guess this is why I feel like I need to defend incorrect statements about Mormons. I'm not trying to convert or deconvert anyone, I just want the truth out there.

If you have other questions that you'd like to discuss with me please feel free to message me. Or you can find me on NOM or some of the other boards I mentioned above. I hope you are able to find peace.

Namaste

Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control

I don't have experience with any. This is why your thread interested me. I need a better therapist. Stopped going to the last one after I eventually realized she wasn't able to even recognize the problems Mormonism caused me let alone help me recover from them.

These are books I have seen mentioned different places, but I haven't taken the time yet to delve into any of them. I often get caught up with choices and procrastinate making a move forward.

Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control

When I Say No, I Feel Guilty

The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem

Combating Cult Mind Control

Hell yes they did this to you, and hell yes you should feel angry! Growing up as female IS HORRIBLE. I've been there. I know. A book that has really helped me undo the cultish mindset and work through my anger is called Recovering Agency:Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control.

Yes, I know the title is cheesy, and the cover art is worse, but this book really helped me deconstruct the damage that was done and kind of cognitively work through it like a therapy session. It really helped me feel free and to release the inner turmoil by working through my anger and frustrations.

http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416287286&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=undoing+mormon+mind+control

The book Recovering Agency could be helpful for you and your friend to read, it would be from an outside perspective of a different church which your friend may be more willing to listen to. It's really good, as is using logic and reason. http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Agency-Lifting-Mormon-Control/dp/1489595937

The other book is The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine one of America's Founding Fathers. you can get it free online or for not much on amazon, it is a very excellent book and a good read.

http://amzn.com/1489595937

also, cesletter.com

https://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-B-Roberts/dp/1560850272/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=F9YXCS1912MC6H5QDGF9

> Alright then, I'll make the same suggestion to you that I made to another user; read Nicholas L. Syrett's study, "American Child Bride: A History of Minors and Marriage in the United States." Syrett is a professor of women, gender and sexuality studies and this particular work makes it quite clear that child marriage was an accepted practice that wasn't challenged until the mid-late 18th 19th century. In fact, the biggest outcry wasn't until 1894, when Cassius Marcellus Clay married a 15 year old girl at the ripe old age of 84, I believe. This marriage made national news.

The historian says with zero citations and zero evidence for his claim. This after having just caught lying about the laws of 19th century Nauvoo claiming that "english common law of marriage at 10 years old when effect" when in fact laws prohibited minors below the age of 17 marrying at all without parental consent.

All while you ignored citation after citation and argument after argument that you just whole heartedly failed to address.

You claim that child marriages were not seen as immoral or controversial until suddenly out of the blue and for no reason at all in 1894 one man decided to marry a 15 year old and everyone decided to get upset about it. Doesn't the fact that in 1894 a big famous controvrersial case about marrying underage girls provide evidence for the fact that well before that point it was controversial? It's like saying that because in 2017 people became outraged at Kevin Spacey assaulting underage boys it wasn't controversial until 2017. And that is what i'm talking about when I talk about mental gymanstics.

>Also, if you're going to quote Helen Marr Kimball, at least provide the sentence immediately before the quote. " I remember how I felt, but which would be a difficult matter to describe--the various thoughts, fears and temptations that flashed through my mind when the principle was first introduced to me by my father [Heber C. Kimball], who one morning in the summer of 1843, without any preliminaries, asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives, can be better imagined than told." And then your quote begins immediately. After that she writes about how her father taught her about plural marriage and why it was being established. Absolutely no mention of child marriage. Nice try, though.

Nice try? That's all you have to say when the founder of your religion was forcing 14 year old girls into practices they called "heinous crimes" "improper" and "unnatural". Are you listening to yourself? You're excusing the supposed prophet of the almighty God who had access to such eternal wisdom as "tea is bad for you" and "don't drink coffee" but was simply following the culture of his day in having sex with 14 year old girls. Do you think that having sex with 14 year olds is right or wrong? If you think it's wrong then why even if it was culturally acceptable at the time would excuse a supposed prophet of God doing it? Maybe for the same reason that he was moot on the cultural practice of slavery? Which God didn't bother to imform anyone was a disgusting and immoral practice?

As for your claims let's take a look at the Nauvoo City Council ordinance of 1842 which states:

>“All male persons over the age of seventeen years, and females over the age of fourteen years, may contract and be joined in marriage, provided, in all cases where either party is a minor, the consent of parents or guardians be first had.” Brian C. Hales, Joseph Smith’s Polygamy

What's mind boggling is that a professed objective historian could claim that there were no laws about marriage age's up until the early 1900's and miss that there were laws in Nauvoo itself at the time Joseph Smith was having sex with 14 year old girls in the 1840's. If that doesn't completly discredit your crediblity I don't know what does.

In additon we have here clearly stating that 14 year old girls could not marry without permission from their parents. If it's true as you say that marrying a 14 year old was seen as completly normal and unnoteworthy why then would he need the permission of the girls parents?

Even Brian Hales. A Mormon scholar admits that these marriages were at least "eybrow raising".

>Matrimonies for females who were fourteen years of age were eyebrow-raising but not scandalous in the 1840s.

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/audio/sealings-to-young-brides/

Further revealing your "objectivity" "bias" and "well researched" historical claims.

And finally as long as we're quoting Helen Marr Kimball let's see what she said about her mothers concerns about her marrying Joseph Smith at such a young age.

>‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...

https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Wives-Joseph/dp/156085085X


What's clear here is your "objectivity" and desire for "historical accuracy" are disineguous misdirections from your clear bias and willingness to mislead others with false at worst and poorly researched at best information. When "by their fruits you will know them" is somehow not applied when the fruits of what you want to believe are bad. So if we're "not getting anywhere" it's because of your refusal to engage in open and honest discussio and instead attempt to mislead, misdirect and engage in all around disingeuous behavior and then refuse to acknowledge any of it on his way out. What's clear is that you're as brainwashed as Joseph Smiths' victims and just as willing to do whatever it takes to excuse his behavior to continue to justify your beliefs.

>That was my only or primary point with that example: that the rule, "he who asserts must prove" is only a very general rule of thumb, and that we are allowed to make presumptions as long as we have some independent grounds for those. If I've established that much - and you seem to have acceded on that - then that point is made. That only leaves one other question.

I've never pretended the claim about Joseph having sex with HMK was anything other than a presumption, or that you weren't allowed to make such a presumption. But even if you consider it a justified or logical presumption, it's still a presumption, and to present it as anything other than that is disingenuous. That's the only thing I've ever raised a question about; the surety with which people present their opinion on the subject.

If people simply said "we presume Joseph had sex with HMK", that would be great. But that's still far different than saying "Joseph had sex with HKM".

I don't mean to be condescending, but it really seems like you haven't done your homework on polygamy. At the very least, if you haven't read "In Sacred Loneliness" and "The Persistence of Polygamy", I highly recommend taking the time to do so, especially if you're going to be making claims based on historical context and what should be considered "unusual" or not for Joseph Smith's polygamy. If you don't have time for "In Sacred Loneliness", the Compton's article here is a decent summary:

A Trajectory of Plurality: An Overview of Joseph Smith's Thirty-three Plural Wives

But if we both agree that the actual evidence is ambiguous, and that claiming Joseph had sex with HMK is a presumption and inference, that's all I've ever been saying, so we don't need to belabor a point we agree on.

Magic World View is a great book, but the first half -- the section that traces the development of folk magic in the West -- is so dense and hard to get through that I usually suggest it after some more accessible material. But Quinn's insights into magical thinking, folk practices, and superstitious traditions in 19th century America and among Mormonism's founders are fascinating.

Oh certainly he was very controversial, as was polygamy, but the age of the bride wouldn't have been at all in my understanding, and certainly doesn't constitute pedophelia. My great grandmother was around the same age when she was married.

Reread over my post in the other thread and I think you'll understand my point. I'm not supporting pedophelia or polygamy, I simply think it's unreasonable to lampoon Joseph Smith as a pedophile for having a 14 year old bride. Though I have no moral issue personally with either (a 14 year old bride that is, not pedophelia), they do both seem like really bad ideas. And of course a 14 year old in our culture today is rarely (if ever) prepared to make that kind of commitment.

Scharlatan, mad genius, or divine seer, he led a fantastically interesting life no matter how you judge him. Early Mormonism and the magic world view is a terribly interesting book if you're interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

Thank you for this reply. I forgot about that Article of Faith, that's very useful in instances like this. Mormons certainly do have an interesting history. I was so shocked when I learned about all the unpleasantries about church history (with the scrying, the Jupiter Talisman, etc). It definitely helped drive me away form that religion, because it wasn't what I though it was. But actually, now that I'm more into "the occult" side of things, that bitterness that I felt about the church has worn off and it's become more of a fascination.

On a related note, I've been wanting to get this book, Early Mormonism and the Magick World View. Have you read this, by chance? If so, what did you think about it?

2 is answered really well in An Insider's View. Essentially, JS knew the bible incredibly well.

For a TBM, he does a pretty good job staying neutral, but yes, he has his biases.

You might prefer his:

https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570

Grant Palmer's book is fantastic.

Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins has a nice high-level roundup of the prevailing issues in the 1800s North American protestant zeitgeist that wound up in the BoM, too.

I agree with many of the comments here, I think a few soundbites here and there aren't going to do much unless you have a more solid understanding. I would strongly recommend this book
so you can really discuss the issues from a knowledgable standpoint. Besides, maybe you will find out the Mormon church is really true and he will baptize you. Haha.

>Much longer issue here, and some of the research is so new that it is only a few years old. In summary though, the hypocephali, the lion-couch scene, and the sacrifice/altar scene were all used by ancient Egyptians as a "and/also" metaphor. It was one story used to tell another. Or in other words, the author got to create stories analogous to commonly known stories. It's hard to find a modern day equivalent, it's so foreign to our way of thinking. Since the original authors of these died, we can never know what the author intended by his or her use of these scenes.
>
>Also, to state the attached text to the scrolls were the Book of Abraham is incorrect reasoning. It was common practice to attach vignettes to entirely different texts. We assume "if they're adjacent, they match". This is not the case with Egyptians. Further underscored by the idea that Facsimiles 1 and 3 are not even referenced in the adjacent extant scrolls we do have.

Everyone watching, this is that self delusion in action. Your explanation is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a response. Pick up a copy of "By His own Hand Upon Payprus." Your excuse is that basically the symbols we see don't actually mean what we think they mean, even though we can read them. I have a book full of pictures my dad bought at Deseret Book that has the little hieroglyphic on the margins, and a very lengthy "translation." We have the book the "translators" used to code what each symbol supposedly meant. The very fact the church locks these documents up and doesn't talk about them is all the proof one should need. Even Hugh Nibley's assistant who was assigned to review left the church.

It does disprove it, and non-peer reviewed ramblings of paid apologists can't cover up the obvious truth.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560851570/ref=kinw_rke_tl_1

As far as the Kinderhook plates go, why are you trying to slander the man who created the plates? That was the tactic the leaders of the church took BEFORE we found them, and scientifically proved that they were not ancient, and were in fact created by the very process described by the guy who waited 36 years to announce it. A more pertinent question would be why did every Prophet, Seer, and Revelator defend Joseph Smith's claim that he could translate the plates up until we actually found them and science vindicated the farmer?

The people who planted the plates weren't the ones that claimed he translated them. William Clayton, Joseph's trusted scribe who recorded all sorts of very important revelations and church documents was the one who claimed that. And you expect me to believe that out of nowhere he just noted some random note about the Kinderhook plates that he made up and never mentioned again?

Obviously the conspirators were hoping that eventually Brigham would have tried to translate them. It doesn't matter why they waited so long, we know that they created them, and the church has already admitted that. But I guess that footnote in History of the Church is still around so you may have not understood the latest apologetic argument.

So rather than resorting to lying and slander to defend the church, I'd suggest you start being more honest in your research.

Maybe the author of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321

Here's some Wiki about him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Ritner

If I remember correctly Ritner had quite the back and forth on Patheos with a BYU professor or two.

Only way we could ever have incontrovertible proof is if we had Joseph Smith sign an affidavit not under duress that he made it up. We don't have that but we have a lot of evidence of fraud. My first shelf item was hearing that the Joseph Smith papyri that was used to write the Book of Abraham were discovered. I had no idea. I learned that they were translated as something very different. I decided to research the topic with an open mind from an academic unbiased POV. I used this book: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egyptian-Papyri-Complete/dp/1560852321/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=joseph+smith+egyptian+papyri+ritner&qid=1555347679&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spell. I read the Church's current explanations on the topic. In the end, I couldn't arrive at any conclusion other than Joseph Smith made it up. Soon after I learned about the Kinderhook Plates. More proof that Joseph Smith could make up something. I learned about Joseph Smith admitting to using a seer stone to commit fraud by making people believe he could use the stone to find buried treasure. People would pay him to find treasure but he never did. He was convicted for that fraud. He used the exact same stone to dictate the BoM. There is proof that it was in Joseph Smith's character to commit fraud. There is proof that Joseph Smith willingly lied and got others to lie for him as leader of the Church (lots of this evidence). There is proof that his works (Book of Abraham and Kinderhook Plates) are fraudulent. There is a lot more also. PM me if interested and I will share some more of my notes. mormonthink.com is a great resource as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

I haven't read it, but this might be helpful. It just came out 3 weeks ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Wealth-Corporate-Power/dp/1560852356

Rough Stone Rolling is good but soft-pedals some things.

Some of the stuff from the church historian's press looks worthwhile: https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/publications?lang=eng

Greg Kofford Books has an extensive history line. I've enjoyed what I've read and found it to be well done. https://gregkofford.com/

Natural Born Seer is good, more of a critical lens on Joseph Smith's early years, really intriguing.

Joseph's Temples regarding the Freemasonry connection.

People highly recommend D. Michael Quinn.

Leonard Arrington's stuff is supposed to be classic, Great Basin Kingdom.

David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism by Gregory Prince.

via: http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-Heaven-Violent-ebook/dp/B000FC1R2S

I keep seeing this thing where people want "the government" to take care of more and more stuff for people. Can we instead say "the taxpayers should pay for this, including paying for anyone that wants to have huge families and contribute nothing at all to the rest of their community". See https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FC1R2S/ for a good take on how some very out-there crazy communities essentially live off of the rest of the taxpayers by using whatever they can to get money.

I mean sure, it'd be nice. I'm all for revising the tax code. But how many immigrants are you willing to absorb, how many other people are you willing to pay for, and how high are you willing to see your tax rate go? The money has to come from somewhere, and the people you take the money from, they tend to get pissed off if you just hand it out to people they don't think contribute very much. That causes a lot of friction, and tends to attract a lot of people who just see free money and services, so there's no need for them to stay and fight or stay and try to improve the place where they're at?

If you're interested in the subject Jon Krakauer - Under the Banner of Heaven, contains a narrative history of the beginning of the Mormon Church and their westward migration to the Midwest and then to Utah. It covers other subjects too in a meandering back and forth, but it makes for very interesting reading.

The site has a long list of references. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/References.html

It may look like a blog but it seems to be sourced well. Seems like the story I linked was drawn from this book. If you are really interested, you should see if your library has a copy

D. Michal Quinn literally wrote a book called Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/ref=nodl_

And, he has done interviews and podcasts explaining what he researched. Try Mormon Discussion, or Mormon Stories. There are plenty of exmo podcasts that “touch that topic”, and have a context to frame it in so the discussion is interesting and relevant. Not just a bunch of bro’s who don’t have a clue what they are talking about who end up on unrelated tangents as often as they are on topic.

it must be a spin off of the LDS church because it was spurred by a "revelation" to the husband. If you want to check out more fun ways that mormons act out on their "revelations, check out Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer. Mysterious ways, indeed.

This is just not true. Members of the Church (most notably Royal Skousen) have worked hard to try to make early versions available.

> No, they don’t know about them.

But they do. But they find a way to explain it all away as the work of the devil (but yet thanks to him they have the truth from the Garden of Eden and they can "fall upwards"!!! )

>they are worse than true believing Mormons.

And is there such a thing as a true believing Mormon?? After all, besides the "burning in the bosom" what exactly can a Mormon defend without committing some "intellectual suicide?"

Mormons that develop the discouraged "gospel hobbies" are the ones that eventually find the path out of the church.

And the ones that stay many are unbelievers who sit in the pews - as described in this book, whether anyone thinks they are bad or not.

At this point the evidence is more than clear. It's like arguing for a flat earth when many know otherwise.